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SL Education Roundtable - Montclair State CHSS Island Tuesday, March 4th, 2008 "What do we say to, and how do we deal with, skeptics" [Special Thanks to Zotarah Shepherd for providing these notes] Part of this transcript have been edited for readability.

AJ Brooks: why don't we start by introducing ourselves. No need to wait - type away, you can catch up in history to see what everyone said Graham Mills: Graham Mills, Liverpool, UK MLani Montgomery: My name is M'Lani, and I am an assistant superintendent at an education service agency in the US that has a distance-learning program. Claire Nostram: Claire Montclair State U AJ Brooks: I'm AJ Brooks, AJ Kelton in RL - I work for the College of Humanities and Social Sciences at Montclair State University in New Jersey. This is our Island, which we've had since April of last year Juice Gyoza: University Wisc Milwaukee - Communication dept and Learning Tech Center AJ Brooks: oh - and don't worry about typos - we all speak Typoense fluently :-) Sloan Skjellerup: lol Ilike Fall: Marlyn Tadros - teaching Internet and computers and design etc at New England Institute of Art in Boston Franchella Milena: Pat Facciponti (Franchella Milena) Lafayette College Instructional Technologist AJ Brooks: I see a bit more typing, AJ Brooks: anyone else? Ozma Malibu: Sandy Andrews, Arizona State, on the phone though - Zotarah Shepherd Hi I am a grad student in northern California at Sonoma State University. I teach - volunteer- on the teen grid and SL. I am trying to get SSU to allow me to teach a class in SL for credential students. AJ Brooks: I thought we'd start off today by talking about how to deal with skeptics. Anyone have any experience with this? MLani Montgomery: Oh yes. Ilike Fall: oh plenty of course, my school isn't there yet Graham Mills: Hard to say Ilike Fall: nor are they remotely there Zotarah Shepherd I teach life-skills and self-esteem usually as a guest speaker at high schools and missle schools in RL. MLani Montgomery: What is a missle school? AJ Brooks: where is the push back? MLani Montgomery: Oh, middle, sorry. Gobiyaya Wozniak: hello I work with a k-8 school in California -- we are thinking of getting and island or working with others doing the same. AJ Brooks: what is the usual "line" you get Zotarah Shepherd yes Middle school sorry MLani Montgomery: They say it's not the same nor as valuable as face-to-face. Ilike Fall: the usual line is 'let's get a first life first' - **rolling eyes** AJ Brooks: lol Sloan Skjellerup: Hi Phelan! Phelan Corrimal: good day Juice Gyoza: I always wonder why we compare technology to f2f -- like f2f is always that great AJ Brooks: well - that seems to be a natural comparison, no? Juice Gyoza: yes -- but why? Still is it? Ilike Fall: and, also, why watch a web cast of a conference in SL and not as a regular web cast on the web [as an example] MLani Montgomery: Even when you present the research that talks about creating your persona, the value of the anonymity to allow one to explore and take risks, and the 3D aspect, they still say it's not worth the effort. Juice Gyoza: the decades of cmc research have shown that they are different mediums -- different benefits and challenges Ozma Malibu: Juice: Applied Learning Technologies Institute and College of Ed. [still on phone, sorry] AJ Brooks: ok - so effort is a major stumbling block Zotarah Shepherd I just read the report about environmental impact of SL. Fascinating, but missed the alternative of driving or flying distances. AJ Brooks: credibility, what else? Phelan Corrimal: an avatar should not be confused with the person behind it because they are not the same AJ Brooks: well - there are some who might not completely agree with that MLani Montgomery: Validity of the learning experience. Juice Gyoza: No problem Ozma -- did my doctorate work in Comm dept Ilike Fall: my students hate the idea. They think I have gone crazy AJ Brooks: what age group, Ilike? Ilike Fall: 18-25 Graham Mills: I am taking a very incrementalist approach AJ Brooks: ok, my students LOVE SL. I'm teaching writing Zotarah Shepherd I was pleasantly surprised that SSU IT department said OK to downloading SL for a class. And has already done that for a communications course. Phelan Corrimal: An avatar is an expression of the persona that a person may like to be rather than who or what a person is - similar to how people often fragment their RL social circles and behave in one fashion with one group while completely different with another AJ Brooks: fresh comp Ilike Fall: can we mix them? Sloan Skjellerup: hmm, my avatar is me ... just less 20 years ...lol AJ Brooks: I'm not sure I make a huge distinction between AJ Brooks and AJ Kelton Phelan Corrimal: lol AJ Brooks: lol - yes, except physically appearance. I don't act differently Ilike Fall: yup.. me too AJ Brooks: now - with my Alt, that is a different story Zotarah Shepherd Schools do not really need to buy an island to start teaching in SL. There are so many places for teaching now. AJ Brooks: I have an Alt that owns an art gallery, and people who know me in RL say I am different Ilike Fall: lol AJ Brooks: good point, Zotarah Phelan Corrimal: Well keep in mind that in here - everyone is 'beautiful people' - there is no race no colour no deformities no accents AJ Brooks: there are many resources. Thats not true either, Phelan Ilike Fall: I am more or less the same, but in SL I can be younger and dress like a nutcase. Nobody cares AJ Brooks: I know people who choose to be avatars of color, or handicapped Franchella Milena: I'm pretty much a newbie, but I am intrigued by the possibilities. I used to do a lot of multipoint videoconferencing with classes. Juice Gyoza: we may all come across differently - it is the medium...Walther talks about hyper personal communication -- that we are more desirable in a lean medium MLani Montgomery: What do you mean there are no race, colour, deformities, accents? I see people choosing to be in wheelchairs and with deformities. I see races. I hear accents. AJ Brooks nods Ilike Fall: true.. but that is so by choice., They choose to do that. AJ Brooks: yes Zotarah Shepherd I have seen many AVs who choose to be in a wheel chair or alternative appearance. AJ Brooks: very true Phelan Corrimal: but not in text chat -- in text chat you simply have the words on the screen - people either choose to make those aspects of themselves known or not Juice Gyoza: you can project a chosen identity Franchella Milena: This type of gathering, I think, offers the additional options of exploring terrain, joint projects, interaction, and a certain amount of anonymity when you wish it. Ilike Fall: yet I know one woman who is actually handicapped in a wheelchair and she loves SL she said because she can be 'normal' and can even fly MLani Montgomery: Even if you don't have voice, you can spot the linguistic characteristics of a second language learner in type. Phelan Corrimal: exactly AJ Brooks nods Phelan Corrimal: take off, eh?! Juice Gyoza: I think our words in chat can say different things about us then our words in f2f AJ Brooks: oh yes, as a rhetorician, I could not agree more Zotarah Shepherd Even though we have Voice in SL now, I rarely see it used. MLani Montgomery: There is an organization in Brazil using SL to reacclimate children who have been abused into "normal" social interaction. AJ Brooks: really? Do you have the name of that org? MLani Montgomery: There is a group in the UK helping people coming out of comas to learn to socialize again through SL. Phelan Corrimal: I think that is one of the benefits of this environment -- people are more accepting of differences in here Ilike Fall: "linguistic characteristics of a second language learner in type." hmm.. so can you tell who here is not an English-as-first-language person? AJ Brooks: there is DEFINITELY a written voice MLani Montgomery: I have it in my research notebooks. I can look it up for you. I've gathered a lot of information on the therapeutic uses of SL because I want to target special needs students in SL. Franchella Milena: It's a lot more personal than a web cast. You're not just watching and listening. You have a personal involvement in your avatar. Juice Gyoza: I have disclosed more about my ideas and opinions in Sl than I ever would in a f2f meeting AJ Brooks: there are def. traces of people who are ESL in their writing that doesn't mean they exhibit them when they write Zotarah Shepherd Wow great MLani AJ Brooks: so, with all this enthusiasm, why can't we get through to the skeptics? Why do they NOT want to believe so much? Juice Gyoza: Mlani - I have a college that is going to use SL for her Occupational Therapy class - I should connect you two AJ Brooks: what is their vested interest in proving us wrong? Ilike Fall: because they think it's a fad AJ Brooks: is it? MLani Montgomery: I believe those who are most vocal in their skepticism have not had positive experiences in gaming or computers in general. Phelan Corrimal: skeptics are mainstream adopters - not early adopters --- they will come around in due time once the technology has proven itself Juice Gyoza: a colleague not college -- lol Graham Mills: They've spent a lot of money on bricks and mortar? Ilike Fall: maybe it is AJ Brooks: I see SL as the "AOL" of virtual worlds Zotarah Shepherd Sometimes it is hard to tell since so many educated people type in ungrammatical ways, like not using Capitals or punctuation - me included. Ilike Fall: someone was talking about the killer app on the list, right? Juice Gyoza: I have to say though we can't discount the skeptics AJ Brooks: it will be around, although not always the king of the hill Ilike Fall: or did I read that somewhere else? Juice Gyoza: I would like to see more documented evidence on the impact on learning AJ Brooks: skeptics are GREAT. We NEED the skeptics Zotarah Shepherd Me too Juice AJ Brooks: they keep us sharp Phelan Corrimal: the skeptics are right on one point - there is no benefit to this environment in ALL cases MLani Montgomery: Most of the skeptics I deal with are having a hard enough time going from Web 1.0 to 2.0, let alone this Web 3.0 environment. They can't handle the paradigm shift. Ilike Fall: I think until we get that killer app... lol true Juice Gyoza: I teach computer-mediated communication - communication tech, so I understand the potential -- but I want to see the evidence AJ Brooks: virtual environments are a tool Zotarah Shepherd There is so much bad press about SL, that people tend to overlook the good. AJ Brooks: well - people have to write it up Phelan Corrimal: there seems to be two camps in SL --- the "Oh my god - drop everything and work from SL" camp and the "you people are nuts" camp Juice Gyoza: I have been using virtual worlds for a decade, but...there still needs to be more supporting evidence AJ Brooks nods Juice Gyoza: that documents SL's ability to meet certain pedagogical goals better than other technologies AJ Brooks: full time tenured faculty need to publish Phelan Corrimal: very few seem to be middle of the road using technology in the right measure for the right reasons and purpose Graham Mills: Is it the Hawthorne effect you have to discount, the novelty value? Chimera Cosmos: sorry to be late- hi all Zotarah Shepherd Right. I compare SL to a city where there are a variety of places a university as well as a red light district. AJ Brooks: welcome MLani Montgomery: Every learning system should have multiple delivery platforms for optimal contact and to address all learning styles. It should be one of the platforms when it makes sense to be in this environment. If the class has any kind of social aspect to it at all, SL could be used for that if they are at a distance or have any constraints about time or home commitments. AJ Brooks: join us Phelan Corrimal: Hi chimera Patrice Llewellyn: Hi, my apologies as well. Zotarah Shepherd I think parents are the ones we need to educate Ilike Fall: sloan. I am so distracted by you LOL AJ Brooks: I did not give my students a choice about using it. I wrote it into the curriculum, told them from the start, and there has been little to no push back Juice Gyoza: me too AJ Brooks: its hybrid Phelan Corrimal: I don't necessarily think so -- the standard marketing life cycle suggests that we are still at a very early stage of adoption AJ Brooks: we meet 50% on campus and the rest in SL, Juice Gyoza: nice blended design AJ Brooks: we've not even seen the tip of the iceberg, Juice Gyoza: true Phelan Corrimal: information communication technology convergence is still happening in this environment and until we see a more or less full convergence I think this platform will still be on the fringes of mainstream adoption AJ Brooks: full convergence? Phelan Corrimal: Educators are certainly leading the way in this regard however Ilike Fall: ok sometimes I just think that some of 'us' here are a bit over the top in advocating for SL. We do sound a bit insane to the RL. AJ Brooks: what tool has full convergence? Zotarah Shepherd For a project last semester I gathered together website resources to use in a proposal to adopt SL as a learning platform. Phelan Corrimal: for example - A standard application would be to share your desktop in this environment. Phelan Corrimal: We can't do that today and yet it is a standard tool of webinars Zotarah Shepherd hahaha Ilike AJ Brooks: but webinars are limited in other ways Ilike Fall: :) Phelan Corrimal: You can't do file sharing in here AJ Brooks: and yet they are full convergence? MLani Montgomery: But SL doesn't have to be a one-stop shop for ALL applications. Can't you have the webinar up while also be in SL? Phelan Corrimal: you can't get web pages in here easily MLani Montgomery: Multiple platforms are needed. AJ Brooks nods heartily, you will be able to soon. May I think. html on a prim is just around the corner Phelan Corrimal: I think if this is going where it needs to you should be able to do everything you can using web 2.0 technologies in SL Zotarah Shepherd I like the adaptability of SL. You can bring so many things into it. AJ Brooks: but WHY? Chimera Cosmos: got to change computers -- back in a minute Ilike Fall: without knowing how to code though AJ Brooks: why does it need to be everything? Ilike Fall: because if it will depend on coding, then we are alienating a lot of people Phelan Corrimal: That corner is a very big corner -- they've been talking about it since before I signed up to SL AJ Brooks: no - there is a date on it now, I think it was May, but I don’t' remember Phelan Corrimal: Feb 29, 2009 MLani Montgomery: I don't think it needs to be or do everything. I don't think all kids will be proficient in this. I think students will respond differently to different platforms, so you should use many. AJ Brooks: agreed, arrows in a quiver Phelan Corrimal: I think there are some standard things this environment needs to do to really become a competitive collaborative platform Zotarah Shepherd It is hard enough to get teachers to use any technology in the classroom. AJ Brooks: when I am holding class - we operating in Word, Blackboard and SL Phelan Corrimal: web on a prim; desktop sharing; webcams; and file sharing are all part of that. things that are incredibly important for business to really get effective use out of the platform AJ Brooks: well - what business needs and what education needs are very different and the approaches are different too Graham Mills: Just try to imagine what it will be like in 10 years time AJ Brooks: imagine in 1 year, thin back a year ago, how many of you were in world last year today?. I was Graham Mills: I wasn't here, lol MLani Montgomery: I want to be sure that as many people as can take advantage are getting into it as they can, baby steps, so it does not overwhelm them. Phelan Corrimal: Sort of --- I'm coming from the business education side of things not k-12 so have a bit of a different outlook as there are different requirements for MBA programs Graham Mills: I agree Mlani AJ Brooks: seriously - lets take a poll. AJ Brooks: how many people were in SL last year on March 4th Phelan Corrimal: I can rez one :-) AJ Brooks raises hand Sloan Skjellerup: Me MLani Montgomery: I don't want this to be a place where only the gamers and web heads go. I want it to be as user friendly as possible. Phelan Corrimal: yep MLani Montgomery: me Juice Gyoza: I had na avatar -- wasn't in Eliza Vanalten: me Phelan Corrimal: well maybe on the 2nd --- I don't know about the 4th per se :) Graham Mills: Not seriously Patrice Llewellyn: I wasn't in AJ Brooks: lol Claire Nostram: I'm new AJ Brooks: ok - so only a small handful. a year ago there weren't even 1/2 a millio rsidents. AJ Brooks: and now there are over 12million Franchella Milena: I am also new but making up time with intensity! : ) Sloan Skjellerup: I saw the potential immediately AJ Brooks: give or take some alts Sloan Skjellerup: lol Franchella Zotarah Shepherd There are many classes in Basics of SL and some intermediate but not much on how to teach in a classroom. Then we can do machinimas of the advantage of SL in a classroom. Until then we will just have the lecture format and teachers will wonder "Why use that?" Phelan Corrimal: hmmmm yes there was --- when I joined in Jun 06 there were 4M accounts (realizing that residents are different of course) Ozma Malibu: I was in this time last year Phelan Corrimal: experiential learning Ozma Malibu: ok, off the phone and caught up Sloan Skjellerup: wb Ozma AJ Brooks: there were not 4m in june 06, not in SL MLani Montgomery: Experiential learning and discovery approaches are out there. Just not infused with technology. It's not as big a leap as it sounds. AJ Brooks: check out the metrics Phelan Corrimal: the difference is one of tacit verse explicit mechanisms of education and knowledge transferance Zotarah Shepherd We need immersive constructionist builds and techniques employed in SL teaching. Juice Gyoza: The ability to learn through dialgue is verey possible...experiential learning is possible in some disciplines MLani Montgomery: If the builds and examples of the student activities are there, the teachers will begin to see themselves as the proverbial guid on the side rather than the sage on the stage. Juice Gyoza: My colleagues in the health sciences are finding some limitations AJ Brooks: there are still limitations, lol, and imitations too Zotarah Shepherd Good Mlani Juice Gyoza: ha MLani Montgomery: That is why one platform will never be fully sufficient. Phelan Corrimal: the idea of play, role play, and experimentation are very applicable I think to any level of education and this is a good environment for that Zotarah Shepherd Yes Phelan Juice Gyoza: yes -- role playing potential is great AJ Brooks: so how do we bring this from the game board to the board of trustees MLani Montgomery: I visited a health sciences double sim where they had disaster preparedness and mass casualty triage trainings going on. Amazing stuff. Zotarah Shepherd Machinima AJ Brooks: play2train is amazing also Phelan Corrimal: we have a courtroom set-up for example --- we can reinact many differen types of scenarios with people from 12 different countries at the drop of a hat --- you can't necessarily do that in RL Juice Gyoza: the limitation is in the ability to do more fine motor things in sl MLani Montgomery: Part of dealing with skeptics is helping them see this as ONE tool or platform in a big bag of platforms. AJ Brooks nods, yes, back to the many arrows idea Ilike Fall: LOL.. ok do we have three people sitting on the same chair? or am I seeing things? Sloan Skjellerup: hehe Phelan Corrimal: but that will come as the platform continues to improve --- consider the fact that just 20 years ago PONG was state of the art in video gaming Zotarah Shepherd There will alsobe a UN for students on the teen grid. AJ Brooks: we're a friendly group Eliza Vanalten: lol ilike Sloan Skjellerup: not as bad as getting cought with your Emote on Ilike Fall: LOLLLLL Juice Gyoza: I have no problem meeting pedagogical needs, but my colleagues do...yes -- several people are on my lap AJ Brooks: i can make the table bigger Zotarah Shepherd NASA is teaching here and the TG too. MLani Montgomery: Juice is popular today. MLani Montgomery: That chair is stuck AJ Brooks: hmmm - thats yucky MLani Montgomery: Are we on a sim line or something? AJ Brooks: yes MLani Montgomery: ahhh, bingo Ilike Fall: LOLLLLLLLLL AJ Brooks: perhaps that is the problem MLani Montgomery: It is Ilike Fall: sloan, I think we're stuck together MLani Montgomery: The script is confused by the sim line AJ Brooks: let me move the table over a bit MLani Montgomery: hang on! Phelan Corrimal: hanging MLani Montgomery: lol Eliza Vanalten: holding tight to my chair!! Zotarah Shepherd It is interesting how the physical appearance affects us, even though we can still type. The same happens with our students. There is a suspension of disbelief AJ Brooks: sorry gang Ilike Fall: LOL Sloan Skjellerup: cool, E ticket Ride! Ilike Fall: no don't be sorry that is so cool AJ Brooks: guess I know for next time not to have the table over so far Chimera Cosmos: wooo Phelan Corrimal: back on the side lines again --- sheesh! Chimera Cosmos: motion Sloan Skjellerup: Faster, do it again! woo hoo AJ Brooks: if you're on the outside you may want to stand and take a new seat. Lol. yeee-haaaaaa Franchella Milena: Thanks for the conversation. Duty calls. Must go! AJ Brooks: bye MLani Montgomery: Bye then AJ Brooks: we'll be back here next week, Franchella Zotarah Shepherd This is a playground of the mind, a media for social interaction and creativity. AJ Brooks: it is all that, and more than that, the learning is deeper, in some instance Zotarah Shepherd Yes more MLani Montgomery: It's also a place to demonstrate the use of knowledge, which isn't always possible to this extent in rl AJ Brooks nods Ilike Fall: I got ejected into la la land Zotarah Shepherd We just have to prove that AJ Ilike Fall: :( AJ Brooks: well - how do we do that? Phelan Corrimal: It really I think depends on the application --- photography for example in this environment SL is perfect for teaching AJ Brooks: I only have two letters after my name, not three - so the establishment doesn't listen to me MLani Montgomery: I've often wondered about having a group of avatars which are "demo" avs to bring people in to experiment. Set them up ahead of time, let them log in instead of going through the registration process, have them already at a given location, and then start a big of an orientation. Ilike Fall: phew. Safe Zotarah Shepherd We see what is working and make a machinima of it and compile those to show to our administrators. Phelan Corrimal: you can adjust lighting camera angles, design, form, line, function, any number of variables relatively quickly Zotarah Shepherd Does everyone know what machinima is? Ilike Fall: yup Eliza Vanalten: yes Chimera Cosmos: the banding together of groups in here is really good, better than in RL AJ Brooks: NMC's orientation island is much better, as is their ASP sign up MLani Montgomery: Mahinima is movie making in SL. Phelan Corrimal: That is something we are thinkging of playing with as well Chimera Cosmos: yes, like at NMC AJ Brooks: not just SL Juice Gyoza: that is good advice for students too AJ Brooks: its avatar based movies Juice Gyoza: have them go into sl together so they can use each other as a resource MLani Montgomery: If YOuTube would just have more examples of good education with their machinima projects instead of all the hype Zotarah Shepherd NMC has provided the best of what SL has to offer in education, that I have seen so far. AJ Brooks: agreed Phelan Corrimal: it reduces set-up time because you are pre-set the AV for the specific class as part of the set-up Eliza Vanalten: as annoying as Orientation Island is, it's worth taking the time to do..... the problem is, most people don't want to invest that time, and they give up AJ Brooks: i'm working with NMC on the Student Center project MLani Montgomery: Cool, AJ Juice Gyoza: great Juice Gyoza: when will teh student cetner be done AJ Brooks: SL's Orientation Island is very difficult Phelan Corrimal: students have everything they need from the get go rather than having to sort away inventory up front AJ Brooks: I couldn't get through it, and I built this island - lol Juice Gyoza: when will teh student center be done Eliza Vanalten: lol Chimera Cosmos: the trick is to figure out the most painless way to get people in,of course AJ Brooks: we're in the planning phases now Chimera Cosmos: but that's true of all use of technology Zotarah Shepherd Admins and teachers and parents will not take the time to read a bunch of reports, until they see what SL can be. We can show them with machinimas. Phelan Corrimal: blunt hit to the back of the head and then drag them in :) Eliza Vanalten: i just sat with a group of people who had never been in.... it was quite the experience MLani Montgomery: But if you bring in someone to an avatar that doesn't look like a cartoon and has clothing and toys and such, then the introduction is much more productive. I bring them in as one of my alts just to let them see the possibilities. Zotarah Shepherd Then we walk them through SL and let them try it. Phelan Corrimal: well at least people don't show up naked anymore AJ Brooks: lol MLani Montgomery: lol Eliza Vanalten: lol MLani Montgomery: Did they ever come in naked? Eliza Vanalten: yes! AJ Brooks: i did Phelan Corrimal: oh ya Eliza Vanalten: we had one just the other day MLani Montgomery: That's just WRONG! lol Eliza Vanalten: it was "blurry" naked... Phelan Corrimal: hehe--- up until about last summer I think AJ Brooks: birthday suit Eliza Vanalten: but still naked Zotarah Shepherd Wellll not quite true. There are still griefers and new people who do not get it. Ilike Fall: the entire initial process of registration sucks. Whenever i 'recruit' someone new and make them sign up they get stuck at the initiation island [ok ok orientation island] and then hate it and never go back Chimera Cosmos: I brought two people to my house, but realized later that NMC with wide open spaces is much easier for newbies Eliza Vanalten: with the group i was with te other day... Chimera Cosmos: especially if they have any lag Zotarah Shepherd That is the place we have to Mentor new teachers MLani Montgomery: I agree. They need to meet with me, as an in-world guide, and go through it, but only after they've played with an "advanced" av and seen what is possible. Eliza Vanalten: we rescued all of them from the island and tried to give private tutoring Phelan Corrimal: Rockcliffe's orientation program should be ready by the end of this month --- we're hoping that won't be the same experience Eliza Vanalten: it was quite hysterical Zotarah Shepherd Yes MLani Ilike Fall: well how do you rescue them from there? I tried repeatedly but it didn't work and was a very frustrating process AJ Brooks: i brought my whole calss in through NMC - it worked like a charm Chimera Cosmos: Rockclife is an impresive place to take newbies Phelan Corrimal: ty :-) we are always looking for new ideas to improve Chimera Cosmos: am I fading out...not seeing what I say AJ Brooks: we're getting you chimera Juice Gyoza: hmmm...good idea...what did you have your students do? Sheila Yoshikawa: you can offer tp to people in Orientation island, to get them out AJ Brooks: first I had them sign up for their account before class Chimera Cosmos: hmmm....wonder why I don't see it in chat Ilike Fall: it doesn't work, at least with me it didn't AJ Brooks: then we spent 1/2 of one class just wandering around Ilike Fall: when they click tp they do not move 15:15] Phelan Corrimal: maybe helicopter rescues --- swat team style :-) AJ Brooks: with me leading them, but them doing things on their own, then I made it part of their homework Zotarah Shepherd I tell people to call me as soon as they start to create an account in SL. I will walk them through it. AJ Brooks: they HAD to get the skills down Chimera Cosmos: my interestis actually in helping faculty to learn how to be here and teach here AJ Brooks: or they would fall behind in the calss assignments Phelan Corrimal: how much time are you spending on having them work the technology rather than the class? I would think the best classes are those were the technology is as seemless as possible Chimera Cosmos: wow, I just saw something that I said several minutes ago AJ Brooks: well - at this point, SL is not seemless, so that is just not an option Zotarah Shepherd The Elven Institute is also giving Basic SL classes and offering Mentors for teachers. AJ Brooks: but I had them do most of their prep for class as part of thier homework. I gave them one week "grace", but I also didn't epxect to omuch from them right away. the technology was intergrated into the teaching. after all - it is still a writing class, so it all has to be about the writing Phelan Corrimal: this is part of what we were thinking for orientation --- having an orientation session outside of Sl to give people an idea of what to expect for the first 10-15 minutes or so once they are inside the environment here Zotarah Shepherd I was on Help and Orientation for 10 days before I felt comfortable enough to go to the mainland. It was hell. Phelan Corrimal: lol - 3 days here AJ Brooks: ugh Chimera Cosmos: I see we are at the college of humanities and social sciences--are they and science faculty working together at Montclair? Zotarah Shepherd I kept a detailed journal of the experience. Ilike Fall: sorry everyone gotta go. I must attend here more often. :) bye for now AJ Brooks: no Phelan Corrimal: and that was with the old old version AJ Brooks: take care Ilike Fall: thanks AJ AJ Brooks: hoep tos ee you next week Chimera Cosmos: anyone here from Montclair? Zotarah Shepherd It was all for a Technology course project. AJ Brooks: I am Mercury Barnes: Naked, into a welcome center -- couldn't wait to get in, though I'd "surfed" over my wife's shoulder for a week beforehand. :) Phelan Corrimal: nope AJ Brooks: Sciences have not gotten into SL, Just us since April - AJ Brooks: and the College of Education and HUman Services added their island (the barren one next to us here) about a month ago Phelan Corrimal: I would love to get into physics and chemistry classes in here Chimera Cosmos: I'm meeting some MLani Montgomery: What will the college of education do with it? Zotarah Shepherd Science Friday has awesome attendance Phelan Corrimal: not my primiary field thou Chimera Cosmos: and spreading the word like crazy :-) AJ Brooks: I'm not 100% sure, I'm not in on that planning process, but I know they want to let folks experiment and there is also talk of a TG island. Opps - TG = Teen Grid. does everyone know that there is a teen grid? Chimera Cosmos: oh Mercury Barnes: yes MLani Montgomery: Yes, teen grid AJ Brooks: 13-17 Zotarah Shepherd I work there too. Chimera Cosmos: I know that John Bransford has an island but it's private Zotarah Shepherd On a public island Eye4you Chimera Cosmos: too bad, their work is great Phelan Corrimal: well -- the 3d engine isn't robust enough yet to do a lot of things that you can do easier in other applications AJ Brooks: I"ll be heading over to the TG later this week - well, an alt will at least, going to Ramapo MLani Montgomery: What will you be doing there? Phelan Corrimal: Ramapo? AJ Brooks: some consulting, so mentoring Zotarah Shepherd Please know the limitations before you go there. AJ Brooks: I know MLani Montgomery: Nice. AJ Brooks: I've been working very closely with Maggie Marat Zotarah Shepherd Load up your alt with lots of stuff. AJ Brooks nods, my alt has more inventory than this av, lol Zotarah Shepherd hahaha AJ Brooks: i think I've crashed - can anyoen see this? Mercury Barnes: Do folks recommend that students get alts? AJ Brooks: oh - I guess os Phelan Corrimal: yeo Sheila Yoshikawa: yes, i can AJ Brooks: ok Phelan Corrimal: yep even Zotarah Shepherd Lindens will help you if you let them know what you need. AJ Brooks: what would the pupose of the Atl be, Mercury? I don't reecommend more than one Av unless completely necessary Zotarah Shepherd Most teens I know have alts for different purposes. Mercury Barnes: Separate school from play. AJ Brooks nods Zotarah Shepherd But the teens I work with are public AJ Brooks: thats what I did, but I did it because my work pays for my membership Phelan Corrimal: I know I have 3 alts at the moment Juice Gyoza: AJ -- what documentation do you give your students before taking them in world Mercury Barnes: However, I've noticed that even as alts, I tend, trend, toward a "look" and personna that is "me." Zotarah Shepherd I have3 alts 2 here one on the TG AJ Brooks: no documentation, [15:24] AJ Brooks: most of them took to it like a fish to water Zotarah Shepherd I almost never run my alt here Juice Gyoza: do you have them read anything to prepare? AJ Brooks: no, do you have something in mind? Phelan Corrimal: I have one that is used for administrative purposes --- its online as a bot for general information purposes. Scheduling classes and such Chimera Cosmos: I use my alt if I need to do things and don't want to be rude Mercury Barnes: I "live" in the welcome areas and really see the value of them as a meeting place (something I've pushed, probably too much, for all of education within SL). Phelan Corrimal: depends on the need Chimera Cosmos: not responding to IMs and the like Juice Gyoza: one of my courses is fully online, so i am putting some orientation together for them Zotarah Shepherd If you give teens things to do in SL they will run with it and be very creative, but they seem to get lost with a blank slate. AJ Brooks: agreed Phelan Corrimal: adults get lost with a blank slate Chimera Cosmos: maybe if they enter in pairs? AJ Brooks: but that is part of what we teach them in college Sheila Yoshikawa: with my first year (180-19 yesr) class, they had to investigate whether internet addiction and other things ahould deter you from SL - they did a presentation at the end AJ Brooks: how to think critically Zotarah Shepherd haha true Mercury Barnes: Agree Phelan. :) Sheila Yoshikawa: before going into SL, that is AJ Brooks: that is a big part of what I teach them when they write Sheila Yoshikawa: that's *18-19 years* lol AJ Brooks: we talk VERY little about grammar Chimera Cosmos: they could spend too much time in RL bars too AJ Brooks: wait a second, I have two students in their 50s in my class Phelan Corrimal: times up AJ Brooks: one of them has become the class expert Phelan Corrimal: hehe - amazing what you can teach a 50 year old now a days Juice Gyoza: older students can be the most ambitious AJ Brooks: I must say, Phelan is right about the time, our hour is up Phelan Corrimal: doh! Sloan Skjellerup: lol Zotarah Shepherd My fellow students are tired of me extoling the virtues of SL. "There she goes on her SL soapbox..." AJ Brooks: youa re all welcome to stay and hang out Phelan Corrimal: wasn't quite what I meant :) AJ Brooks: and continue the conversation, which is exepctional Sloan Skjellerup: Thank you Aj, this was a lively discussion! Zotarah Shepherd IS a over 50 year-old. AJ Brooks: i must go afk for a minute or two Phelan Corrimal: hehe AJ Brooks: but we meet here every Tuesday Chimera Cosmos: Is anyone going to the NMC conference March 8? Zotarah Shepherd Thanks AJ AJ Brooks: from 2:30 to 3:30 SLT Mercury Barnes: I still believe the best use of SL is for "office hours" and "building a sense of community" amongst students -- the folks I get in (not in courses) exhibit the "love it or leave it," attitude, based, I think, on the visuals -- you only get into the "social groups" if you've hung around (and I think we need to make these more available, sooner, to keep people from bailing). Phelan Corrimal: don't look at me --- I don't hit that milestone for awhile yet Zotarah Shepherd It is full now Sloan Skjellerup: Mercury .. I agree, that too Zotarah Shepherd NMC has no more openings : ( Chimera Cosmos: oh, I didn't know thre was a limit Sheila Yoshikawa: I'm going Phelan Corrimal: no more openings? Chimera Cosmos: but going to a conference is a great introduction for educators Juice Gyoza: bye all! Zotarah Shepherd I think they should have an overflow sim Ozma Malibu: is the march 8 conference the one on mashups? Sloan Skjellerup: bye Juice ;-) Chimera Cosmos: they "get it" right away after a couple of days in SL with presentations by cool folks Zotarah Shepherd I tried to register and it said all full AJ Brooks: if anyone has an ideas fo topics for future SL Education Roundtables, please let me know Phelan Corrimal: ahh AJ Brooks: bye juice Zotarah Shepherd The one on mashups is this summer AJ Brooks: thanks, everyone, for coming Ozma Malibu: ah, thanks zotarah Sheila Yoshikawa: at least - I'm going to *a* conference - museums, libraries, educators... Chimera Cosmos: at the December conference they needed overflow even when it was limited enrollment Ozma Malibu: bye all Chimera Cosmos: thanks AJj Sheila Yoshikawa: bye AJ Brooks: you folks don't need to leave, and I'll hang out as well Mercury Barnes: I started inhabiting the welcome centers when voice came along -- very powerful, very useful (and tons cheaper than the 50K/yr being spent on Elluminate). SL gives presence, meaning folks get comfortable rather quickly (why there are walls and roofs) and voice gives connection. Phelan Corrimal: thank-you all --- was an interesting discussion Chimera Cosmos: bye Graham Sheila Yoshikawa: yes thanks Mercury Barnes: Yes, and I RAIL, against DL'ers not availing themselves of voice. :) Sloan Skjellerup: Yes Yes Yes! Mercury I soo get it too, takes time though I guess Mercury Barnes: Having had to "get voice", SL is a godsend, Sloan Skjellerup: oh, I was delayed ... that response was to your last statement re $$ saving ... Stargazer Blazer: what about for deaf students, Mercury? Zotarah Shepherd I would like to find teachers doing some interesting lesson plans in SL and get a machinima of those. Mercury Barnes: But I'm a realist and know it's just too unstable to rely on totally, which is why I push the "office hours and discussion" aspects. Chimera Cosmos: what discipline Zotarah? Zotarah Shepherd All of them Chimera Cosmos: interdisciplinary :-) Zotarah Shepherd I want to show the education department at SSU how SL can be used to teach any subject. Mercury Barnes: What about students without broadband -- same discussion, different forum, and yes, I do "play both sides" and work chat with voice -- it can be done, and done successfully -- tech will catch up with some sort of IBM VIA Widget that will allow headset users to "automagically translate voice into text" (and do seamless language translations -- the next "inhibitor" to be tossed in the pathc." Zotarah Shepherd I have to get them interested before they will take my proposal seriously Chimera Cosmos: If Bransford starts doing public things, then folks will pay attention Chimera Cosmos: everyone knows "How People Learn", at least in science education they do Mercury Barnes: Voice is here, it should be used, text is great for background student to student in lectures or duing concerts (some really nice chats from these :). Zotarah Shepherd It would be nice to have both Mercury Stargazer Blazer: Hmm, I'm still not sold on voice. I've not had much luck with it except one to one. Chimera Cosmos: the bigger the group, the more I like text AJ Brooks: i like voice, but it has its place, I couldn't see using it in class Zotarah Shepherd You can copy and paste or just save text chat AJ Brooks: except for me to talk tot eh students Mercury Barnes: Nice thing about "office hours and discussion" is it tends to be "optional" and not course required, thus if it fails, the students isn't penalized (deeply). AJ Brooks: but there would be chaos otherwise Stargazer Blazer: Chaos in text, AJ? Chimera Cosmos: obviously you need it for things like the Metanomics shows, simulcast SL and RL things AJ Brooks: no - in voice - i prefer text, plus - I like keeping the record Stargazer Blazer: Ah, I'm with you. Mercury Barnes: The biggest thing I missed taking courses DLing (I've done pretty much everything) was the "connection with the instructor" -- voice and SL can bring this (voice alone isn't enough, there's something about a visual avatar wandering around that fills a "need"). Chimera Cosmos: yes, very much more powerful to have the presence Zotarah Shepherd Agreed Mercury Chimera Cosmos: avatar Mercury Barnes: Chimera understands (at least why my belief is :). Stargazer Blazer: I've attended presentations where voice wasnt' successful (i.e. It didn't work) and I'm a big fan of that new fangled contraption, the telephone. :) Mercury Barnes: what...:) Zotarah Shepherd I will also be looking for teachers to teach classes in Life-Skills Stargazer Blazer: Well, when you get more than 20 people on a sim, voice sort of breaks down, it's a whole other set of issues. Sloan Skjellerup: <--- looking for life skills! hehehe Stargazer Blazer: That sounds like you can't establish "presence" without voice. AJ Brooks: or as we say here in Jersey - a whole nother set Sloan Skjellerup: I have to scoot ... much to learn, thank you I enjoyed this very much AJ Brooks: hoep to see you again, Sloan Mercury Barnes: SL isn't "the best thing on the planet," or the only, but it does work, and what becomes really attractive to students is when they start wandering around and being themselves -- this was the source of the alt question/comment -- segregating their "life" seems important (as I've learned through my alts). AJ Brooks: thanks for coming Sloan Skjellerup: you betcha! Zotarah Shepherd I will also be creating immersive builds to teach life skills and self-esteem, And teaching teachers to do that also. Stargazer Blazer: And I disagree with that notion. I have been in fully online courses where you use text only. I think everyone established "presence" by their writing tone and voice. Mercury Barnes: :) Chimera Cosmos: my 21 and 25 year olds refuse to check it out and think it's very weird that I"m here. they say SL is "lame", but they have been techies since childhood Stargazer Blazer: Well, there is no "objective", nothing to do to advance to the next level. You can't 'win' sl. Chimera Cosmos: my son is big on WoW - yes Stargazer Blazer: There you go Chimera Cosmos: my daughter uses MySpace or something Zotarah Shepherd It is easy to label something. Most just do not see SL as a platform. They expect a game, rules etc - not user created. Chimera Cosmos: they have dozens of contacts around the world - very different from us at that age Stargazer Blazer: Well, how could we, there was no Internet then. I had a pen pal in Australia when I was a kid. :P Mercury Barnes: A common question int he welcome areas is "So what do you do here, I've played World or Warcraft." I respond, "WW has rules, and you "win" against the rules, SL is life, where you "win" against yourself -- which is more challenging? Zotarah Shepherd If you set a lump of clay before a student who does not know what to do with it, the clay will seem lame. Stargazer Blazer: You also get to define the goals. "Winning" may be running a successful business or making a difference through collaboration. Zotarah Shepherd Once you teach them the possibilities and opportunities they can be creative. Mercury Barnes: And "winning aginst yourself," is education -- what we're all interested in. :) AJ Brooks: absolutely, this is why I see the Student Center project as so important. it will help them netwqork with each other around the world Stargazer Blazer: Good thing we have critical thinking to solve that problem. :) Mercury Barnes: :) Stargazer Blazer: I've heard of this Student Center, but I don't know the details. I won't labor you to re-facilitate the discussion. AJ Brooks: not at all - I am spearheading a project, with NMC and a few others from within SL to create a centralize student center on the NMC orientation island. let me get you the blog link - one moment Zotarah Shepherd It is hard tfor techie and WoW students to wrap their minds around so much freedom to create. AJ Brooks: http://sorry-afk.blogspot.com/2008/01/sl-student-center.html Stargazer Blazer: Thanks, AJ. AJ Brooks: sure - please contribute to that blog if you have ideas. this truly needs to be a community effort Stargazer Blazer: Ok, I'd love to. AJ Brooks: in order for it to succeede Zotarah Shepherd When they see what others have done they might think - Oh everything has already been created and there is nothing new left to create. So we have to empower them in small steps. AJ Brooks: if we don't get them excited about this, the way we are, it will be just like blackabord to them AJ Brooks: a place to come to learn, and thats it Zotarah Shepherd Empower them to disagree Mercury Barnes: Yes, I agree with the WW issue, it is hard, similar to instructors and ID's who come into SL -- they never get in deep enough to "see" it's potential -- why I think there needs to something, earlier, that catches their attention and has them "logging in the next night." Stargazer Blazer: Wow, I hope they don't think that in rl, Zotarah. Stargazer Blazer giggles. Yes, Mercury, I got sucked in straight away. Mercury Barnes: Some do, I was one, but a lot just bail and walk away -- it is an issue. Zotarah Shepherd Oh some do. I helped in an art class and students said they were board. The teacher worked on getting their creative juices going. Stargazer Blazer: I don't know that it's for everyone, just like online isn't for everyone. In the future, it may very well be. Mercury Barnes: I tell the story of talking with a builder one evening, who was showing me "SL physics" and asked him the simple question "Uhh, do we weight anything within SL?" Zotarah Shepherd It is hard to be innovative when school has been filled with fill-in-the-blanks workbooks, memorization and dull lectures. Stargazer Blazer: Zotarah, that seems like the perfect environment in which to Be innovative. Mercury Barnes: We spent the next four hours making a "picture perfect" fulcram balance so we could weight ourselves (I weight 0.72 m^3 of wood BTW -- something for you females to worry about). Zotarah Shepherd haha Mercury Stargazer Blazer giggles. I have often asked if my weight has had bearing on things falling or sinking while I am on/riding. Mercury Barnes: These "teachable moments" that really mesh SL with real life and catch the attention of students are still likely to be rare. Zotarah Shepherd My alt is 6'2 and probably weighs 135. all muscle from so amny activities and flying. hehe Mercury Barnes: However, with voice, I can "take control" within minutes (seconds sometimes) of a SIM and have folks learning "when they don't even realize they are, but are happy." -- this is the "hard task" that faces us. :) Zotarah Shepherd The better my AVs are the more I sit here gaining weight and loosing muscle tone, so it is a challenge to bring my AV discipline into RL. Stargazer Blazer: Hmmm, we have given a business course here that has taught rl business principles and applied them to sl. Students were then given a space to build their businesses. I think it is a perfect blend of sl and rl. Stargazer Blazer nods to Zotarah, "I know what you mean." Mercury Barnes: :> Xotarah (I figured out shoes just so I could get that 2" that "makes me taller" than others. ) Zotarah Shepherd We need to share techniques and examples of what works in SL Mercury Barnes: Yes, and I'm not sure how best to do it. SL still suffers from the "Our College spent money, so we have to show "owned users" issue." Stargazer Blazer: Yes, if I go to one more rl conference presentation about what sl is and how to get started, I'm going to puke. Zotarah Shepherd On a elven rp sim where I play (and learn) I have to be at least 6' to compete with a sword in tournaments. Mercury Barnes: If educators, and administrators, were willing to subsume for a bit, then a "greater good" could develop. Zotarah Shepherd They need to try it to really get it. Stargazer Blazer: I had to do that, Zotarah. And i didn't really try any education stuff until I'd been in world for about a year. Mercury Barnes: However, I fully (fully), understand the dynamics of most institutions and their "investment" in such a succioulous place with "SEX, my God," (though they should visit a dorm :), that it will take time (and I'm willing to give it time, simply because I know this is the start of the future .) Mercury Barnes: Like the Web in the early 90 Chimera Cosmos: sorry got to go--chatting with someone I've got to meet with Zotarah Shepherd There is a comfort level you reach in SL where you know what you can do and how to do it. AJ Brooks: bye chimera Chimera Cosmos: see you next time I hope AJ Brooks: thanks for coming Chimera Cosmos: bye AJ Brooks: hope to see you next week Chimera Cosmos: I'm really 59 years old and have grey hair you know :-) Stargazer Blazer: Nice chatting, Chimera. AJ Brooks: stargazer, mercury, shiela, joice, ozma, clair - join us at the table. :-) Chimera Cosmos: I chose to go back to my 20s for some of the time hahaha Mercury Barnes: (I'm from the campus that created Mosaic -- and PLATO :). Zotarah Shepherd Mercury SL is a venue like a city good and not so good elements. Stargazer Blazer: Does it matter? That's the great thing about sl, who you are is what is important. We can all be lovely on the outside. AJ Brooks: :-) Mercury Barnes: AJ, thank you for making this an "Educause event," because I might be able to justify bugging out 45 minutes early to "ensure" I can attend. :) AJ Brooks: ? Zotarah Shepherd But do administrators say well we cannot build a university in this city because they allow a XXX theaters in one part of it? Mercury Barnes: (And I tend to be quieter as time goes on, but with a first contact, figured folks needed to "size me up." :). Zotarah Shepherd I just turned 59 oin the 19th AJ Brooks: oh - you mean that I advertise this on teh EDUCAUSE list Stargazer Blazer: I think the biggest thing is differentiating between rl and sl. We are Adults. This is a cartoon world. Run by rl people, but porn is on the internet, too. It actually helped form the Internet. AJ Brooks: yes - the things people are saying now are the same things they said in the 90s. about the WWW Mercury Barnes: I'm on the "edges" of DL information, but I got two notices, and a will to come, so your "marketing" worked (and we'll see if I can cajole Athena into coming == everyone likes her :). Stargazer Blazer: (Sorry, I get excited and streams of thoughts just come out.) Yes, AJ, ageed. Stargazer Blazer: *agreed even. AJ Brooks: :-) Stargazer Blazer: Well, if this is the infancy of the 3D Internet, just imagine what it will be like in 5 years. AJ Brooks: well, Mercury, glad to hear the efforts are appreciated Mercury Barnes: And no, Stargazer, this is not "cartoon world." :) (PERIOD :). AJ Brooks: stargazer, I can't imagine Zotarah Shepherd I hope so Stargazer Mercury Barnes: and exit for me. :) AJ Brooks: I wonder if Mercury would show up for a meeting in RL in a kimono :-) Stargazer Blazer: Hmm, looks like cartoons. Zotarah Shepherd I do not see this as a cartoon world but can see how some would. Stargazer Blazer: I can jump on a poseball, but I'm not really kissing anyone, it just looks like it. I"m sitting at my computer, typing. AJ Brooks: and its not evern REALLY3d Stargazer Blazer: I know that is a controversial thing to say.