080708

SL Education Roundtable - Montclair State Islands Tuesday July 8th, 2008 "Mature and PG Content"

[15:34] Penelope Drucker: How do you mean NOrris? [15:34] AJ Brooks: poof. bye wealthy. lol. HEY everyone! come on down - grab a seat aroudn the table [15:34] Narris Lorefield: There are utilities that read text and put them into words for those who are visually impaired [15:34] Derrik Beck: do text readers pick up all the acronyms? [15:34] AJ Brooks: I didn't have a chance to "message" my groups - so feel free to invite folks to join us [15:34] Derrik Beck: like lol [15:35] Penelope Drucker: and how can the way we chat make that work better for them? [15:35] AJ Brooks: we'll get startted in a few minutes. I want to remind everyone that we do capture the text from these meetings and make them available publically here on CHSSSouth [15:35] Narris Lorefield: I'm not familiar with text readers, just that they exist [15:35] Penelope Drucker: ahhh okay [15:36] AJ Brooks: how is everyone? [15:36] Derrik Beck: ok... they can probably be set to recognize lots of things [15:36] Philled Graves: enjoying the fog [15:36] AJ Brooks: lol. yes - you are foggy [15:36] Narris Lorefield: Good, thank you, Mr. Brooks [15:36] Philled Graves: :-p [15:36] Pathfinder Linden: text-only SL viewer: http://www.metabolt.net/ [15:36] AJ Brooks: give me amoment ot IM some of my groups and we'll get right into it [15:36] Philled Graves: Mr. Brooks, when did you get promoted? [15:36] Saul Vaher: I am tired, but ready to speak. [15:36] AJ Brooks: Is Fleep here? promoted? [15:37] Philled Graves: very cool, thanks. Mr. [15:38] Penelope Drucker: TY pathfinder. very useful [15:38] Pathfinder Linden: yw Penelope [15:39] AJ Brooks: `ok - lets see if we can fix the chairs. every one hold on. wheee [15:39] Greyce Congrejo: lol [15:39] AJ Brooks: ok - thanks everyone for coming. sorry for the late start. little technical problems on my end - power issues. and I dont' mean polictical :-) Lets start off as we usually do. please introduce yourself, who you are, what you do, etc... go ahead and type now and enter - don't wait - we'll all catch up in chat history [15:40] Greyce Congrejo: Sandy Donnelly, high school principal [15:40] Philled Graves: Rick Shaw (SL - Philled Graves) Director of Technical Services Ventura College [15:41] Kayako Mayako: Kayako Mayako (Kay McLennan in RL) Prof. of Practice (teaching online Business Studies courses) at Tulane's School of Continuing Studies. [15:41] AJ Brooks: I'm AJ Kelton, I'm the Director of Emerging Technology for the College of Humanities and Social Sciences at Montclair STate University in NJ [15:41] Smileyfax Palmer: I'm Smileyfax Palmer, I like to explore and collect free t-shirts. [15:41] Ziggy Moonflower: Michael Lange, media educator from germany, running an educational island in the teengrid [15:41] Narris Lorefield: Narris Cox, Space Destiny [15:41] Grinn Pidgeon: Grinn Pidgeon, unemployed PhD; former director of center for instructional technology at Mercyhurst College and owner of their island; they eliminated my office [15:41] Saul Vaher: I'm Saul, a film major at Hofstra University and a writer for www.Justpressplay.net. [15:41] Derrik Beck: Tom Ward, U. Alabama [15:41] Fiona Wobbit: Susannah Reiser Instructional Designer Pima College [15:41] Bastilla Loon: Interested resident, former science teacher [15:41] AstroGrl Enzo: Danny Martino, Professor of Astronomy at Santiago Canyon College [15:41] Pathfinder Linden: my background and what i do in detail: http://pathfinderlinden.com [15:41] Beau Markova: Beau Markova Computer Science Professor [15:41] Loony Frog: Pat Hensley, i am an ed consultant and adjunct instructor on the univ. level. retired from high school special ed [15:41] Aldrif Avro: Nursing faculty, University of San Francisco, AJ Brooks has let me use some MSU space for my students next fall. Hobby: SL noob. [15:41] Efuturist Daviau: I am a Education Technologist at Duke University [15:41] Penelope Drucker: Muscatine, Iowa, 8th grade social studies and language arts [15:41] Trinity Coulter: Trinity Coulter, virtual explorer and interested in everything in SL [15:42] AJ Brooks: did we get everyone? [15:42] Movies1963 Beck: I'm Todd MacIsaac, I do live educational TV and Webcast Broadcasting and also large live music multi-cam production here in Ft Lauderdale Florida, New York City and West Hollywood California [15:42] AJ Brooks: Hey Z. smaller group than normal today - perhaps my late IMs are still catching people. so - today we are going to chat about Mature and PG content and if there should be separate grids. this was a topic suggested by an attendee [15:42] Narris Lorefield: If anyone would like an introductory notecard, please IM me [15:42] Zotarah Shepherd: I am a MA in Education (technology and psychology) student at Sonoma State University in northern California working an a curriculum thesis project: Teaching and Learning Life-Skills in Second Life. [15:43] AJ Brooks: is the person here who ask me to add this? or did it come out of last weeks meeting? now - don't be shy in front of the Lindens lol - they don't bite [15:44] Claudia Linden: Claudia Linden: Work with Education programs here at Linden Lab (http://secondlifegrid.net/programs/education) - just back from NECC conference with SLEDucators :D [15:44] RobertKlein Dogpatch: :) [15:44] AJ Brooks: ok - well, I'll kick it off then. I don't think there should be separate grid [15:44] Doraemon Howley: hi everyone [15:44] Greyce Congrejo: I don't know..but I'm interested because of the issues involved in getting high school students on the grid in virtual classrooms [15:44] Doraemon Howley: are you all using voice? [15:44] Prospero Frobozz: Prospero Frobozz -- - Rob Knop, was an astronomy professor, now am a Linden in disguise [15:44] AJ Brooks: no - we use text - and provide the transcripts [15:44] Greyce Congrejo: I don't do voice [15:44] Fiona Wobbit: I think there should be a separate education grid that is PG [15:45] AJ Brooks: why Fiona [15:45] Doraemon Howley: i see [15:45] Greyce Congrejo: I agree Fiona [15:45] Doraemon Howley: that's alright :) [15:45] AJ Brooks: why? [15:45] Fiona Wobbit: To keep the mature stuff out. [15:45] Claudia Linden: (Greyce--what issues in particular are you referencing in relation to: "issues involved in getting high school students on the grid in virtual classrooms" ?) [15:45] Penelope Drucker: would have been nice if the mature stuff had been on the separate grid - instead of the kids [15:45] Saul Vaher: There shouldn't be. It should be in the parents' hands to monitor their children. [15:45] Doraemon Howley: i wonder if i can join u all at the round table? [15:45] Saul Vaher: Ideally. [15:45] Greyce Congrejo: Some of our students are over 18, others aren't [15:45] Loony Frog: i think there should be separate grids. i am in SC, which is a very conservative state. parents would cause a big stink [15:45] RobertKlein Dogpatch: What about the age verification system? Won't that help in age related matters such as Mature vs. PG? [15:45] AJ Brooks: please join us at the table [15:45] Claudia Linden: Ah, thanks. Mixed age issue. [15:45] Doraemon Howley: thanks :) [15:46] AJ Brooks: as a higher education instructor, I want the mature content [15:46] Greyce Congrejo: Absolutely, a definite issue [15:46] Fiona Wobbit: Some happy medium, maybe... [15:46] Smileyfax Palmer: I thought SL already had a separate area for minors. [15:46] Loony Frog: my students ranged from 14-21 [15:46] Greyce Congrejo: It does, but then the 18 year olds are excluded [15:46] Penelope Drucker: well, but then our adult av's could transfer back and forth [15:46] Claudia Linden: TSL is for teens ages 13-17, Smileyfax. [15:46] Smileyfax Palmer: Ah. [15:46] Greyce Congrejo: Not without special permissions [15:46] Movies1963 Beck: how ironic, it's leagal in SC for an adult to date a 16 year old and marry him/her without parental concent but the state of SC wants to keep kids that age safe in SL [15:47] AJ Brooks: i taught this last spring and there were times the students needed to be saerching out content that would not be available on a PG sim [15:47] Pathfinder Linden: AJ, what kind of content? [15:47] Loony Frog: yes, many strange laws here :) [15:47] AJ Brooks: well - medical marijuana, date rape, social issues - they were studying social issues. aids [15:47] Fiona Wobbit: Yes, it can be mature withouth being porn. [15:48] AJ Brooks: world hunger [15:48] Greyce Congrejo: I am cognizant of the necessity to protect; however, the restraints can be frustrating [15:48] AJ Brooks: well porn is mature [15:48] Saul Vaher: The problem with parental supervision is - gasp -they actually have to learn what their kids are doing. If that means making an SL character and instituting a parental lock, that shouldn't be a problem. [15:48] Pathfinder Linden: so by "PG" you mean specifically "no porn"? [15:48] Greyce Congrejo: /then there's CIPA [15:48] Loony Frog: parents were outraged here about the harry potter books [15:48] AJ Brooks: lets try to keep on one topic at a time, we shoudl have time to move around the topics of this [15:48] Penelope Drucker: why cant the porn sites here require age verification? [15:48] Prospero Frobozz: If parents were outraged by the Harry Potter books, there's not a lot SL can do to make those parents happy.... [15:48] AJ Brooks: one thread I meant - not one topic [15:48] Movies1963 Beck: here in the state of Florida the educational system is ranked 48th out of the 50 states with a drop out rate of 50% according to the state but they too want to keep kids out of SL [15:49] Ziggy Moonflower: I think it should be: Ban porn, not teens from the maingrid! [15:49] AJ Brooks: ban porn? [15:49] Greyce Congrejo: Whe SL would be so engaging.... [15:49] Penelope Drucker: here here ZIGGY! [15:49] AJ Brooks: how free is that? [15:49] Loony Frog: i think if it was a separate grid, we could introduce SL as a safe place to learn [15:49] AJ Brooks: and how american is that [15:49] Narris Lorefield: We have the problem of children knowing more about computers than their parents and parents who are clueless about computers [15:49] Loony Frog: tchrs could convince admin the value if it was separate [15:49] Ziggy Moonflower: thats what i say: mature stuff on ilsnads with age verification [15:49] AJ Brooks: what is porn to americans may not be porn to parts of the rest of the world [15:49] Prospero Frobozz: When you say "ban porn", what do you mean? Do you mean a strictly PG grid? [15:49] RobertKlein Dogpatch: We know there is a very good reason for having at LEAST two grids. [15:49] Fiona Wobbit: Right, by PG I mean not porn. [15:50] AJ Brooks: breasts are porn accourding to american standards [15:50] Penelope Drucker: restrict accesss to the porn [15:50] Grinn Pidgeon: in the US, communities define what pornography is; in SL each sim can be a separate community [15:50] Smileyfax Palmer: How do you draw the line between pornography and something like an artistic nude? [15:50] Saul Vaher: What if I said that I found the Montclair State University symbol pornographic and offensive to my nature, being a Hofstra student. [15:50] AJ Brooks: YES [15:50] Saul Vaher: If you banned porn, [15:50] Claudia Linden: you guys must read REALLY fast. [15:50] Saul Vaher: What would be the limit? [15:50] Fiona Wobbit: I guess porn must be relative then. [15:50] AJ Brooks: Wealthy - who was hear a minute ago - has a very popular gallery - how Do you define that line [15:50] Penelope Drucker: hahah [15:50] RobertKlein Dogpatch: lol [15:50] Penelope Drucker: Claudia!! [15:50] AJ Brooks: lol -= we are used to it - these meetings go on like this. so - how do we define porn [15:51] Loony Frog: read fast...at least you r'nt bored lol [15:51] AJ Brooks: NetNanny can't do it [15:51] Soraya Till: banning porn would be a bad thing for the SL economy [15:51] AstroGrl Enzo: Why would porn be considered the only "mature" act to be banned. What about the regions were you can shoot people and "kill" your ava? [15:51] Philled Graves: i'm sorry it is unreasonable to sensor content for an entire grid to serve the narrow needs of a small constituencey [15:51] AJ Brooks: right on Philled [15:51] Mercury Barnes: SL has the same problem as the Real World -- our High Schools have signs stating "Visitors must register." Schools should have closed SIMS that allow students from the main Grid in, and students from the Teen Grid in, and after class, they boack to their respective grid. This gets LL off the hook, but put the pressure where it already is, on School Boards and good SIM management. [15:51] AJ Brooks: what percentage of SL users are educational, anyway? [15:51] Penelope Drucker: small consituency?? education??? [15:51] Grinn Pidgeon: yes, I agree that censorship goes against the educational motive [15:51] Narris Lorefield: I thought porn was naked people displayed in publicly accesible venues [15:51] AJ Brooks: I call that art sometimes, Narris [15:51] Smileyfax Palmer: Well, what about that statue of Venus? [15:52] Philled Graves: why is nudity porn? [15:52] AJ Brooks: and again - that is SO very American! [15:52] Movies1963 Beck: I say allow kids on the main grid,but, with the last names the teens are asigned ONLY allow them on G or PG sims where Porn has already beeb banned [15:52] AJ Brooks: and I AM American, btw [15:52] Philled Graves: as am I AJ [15:52] Smileyfax Palmer: If nudity = pornography, then every parent would be arrested for bathing their children. [15:52] AJ Brooks: (yes, Philled, I was referring to my own comment. lol) [15:52] Mercury Barnes: I'm also convinced that students and instructors should be as Alts -- can't have a Mistress controlling a collar during a final and forcibly calling a student away. [15:52] Saul Vaher: Agree. [15:52] Penelope Drucker: no one is saying that [15:52] Fiona Wobbit: Can there be a grid, say for education, without the escort services and bdsm enclaves? do we really need for education? [15:53] Narris Lorefield: graphy means to write, so the pornography would be the publication of naked people [15:53] Philled Graves: education is about critical thought and exchanging thought, regardless of how radical it may be... [15:53] Movies1963 Beck: I say allow kids on the main grid,but, with the last names the teens are asigned ONLY allow them on G or PG sims where Porn has already beeb banned [15:53] Philled Graves: nudity is not porn, and regardless there are serious academic sectors that rigorously research what you're espousing as porn [15:53] Efuturist Daviau: I am having trouble with the trn of this conversation. We are not in the censurship business so defining what is or is not porn does not conern us. Maybe we should redirect the discussion to educational issues. [15:53] AJ Brooks: Movies, they'll find their way around it anyway - they do now. oh - and Movies - Google announced today - did you see it. :-) ack - sorry - that was supposed to be private [15:53] Ziggy Moonflower: I only can speak for Germany, but we have clear definitions what is appropiate for teens and what not [15:54] Movies1963 Beck: not if the grid was programed [15:54] Pathfinder Linden: Fiona, what about the Web? it has escort services and bdsm enclaves as well as educational websites. why is SL somehow different? [15:54] Prospero Frobozz: There is a range between "naked people" and the bdsm sims and escort services. [15:54] AstroGrl Enzo: what about the students that are exploring sl as a psychology venue? Some of their interests would fall into why people explore porn here. [15:54] Fiona Wobbit: good point [15:54] Prospero Frobozz: Is it worth thinking about that? [15:54] AstroGrl Enzo: do we pull there education out too? [15:54] Philled Graves: exactly AstroGrl [15:54] Greyce Congrejo: Our job is to teach them to be selective [15:54] Mercury Barnes: SL is not different, except it's a few years away from being "as understood" as the web. [15:54] Narris Lorefield: You could designate G areas and restrict that, but I think that kid needs to be out playing, not on the computer [15:54] Penelope Drucker: right Greyce [15:54] AJ Brooks: I have two teachers in my school who teach sexuality and one who teaches deviate behavious [15:54] Fiona Wobbit: you can filter out the porn on the web [15:54] Claudia Linden: Ziggy, can you describe those clear definitions? [15:54] AJ Brooks: are we going to forbit him from using SL if he wasnts. someone has a mic open - can you check that pls ty [15:55] Kayako Mayako: Dedicated portals (with instructors &/administrators able to create avatars for student -- and even faculty -- users) would allow for bypassing public spaces (sic -- I realize one can already allow dedicated registration but what I am proposing is being able to create avatars). Further, since my summer faculty workshop participants wasted so much time on the appearance of the avatar (BTW, so did I), I would like to be able to "deliver" already "fixed-up" avatars. [15:55] Ziggy Moonflower: Claudia, sry, i have to translate then more than a page, but if your interested I ll send them to Jean [15:55] Claudia Linden: AJ, you're teaching college level, right? [15:55] Narris Lorefield: If we can create a positive area for children on SL, that doesn't cause disruption like addictiveness, then that might be something to try [15:56] Claudia Linden: Great. Thanks, ziggy. [15:56] Saul Vaher: People thought Elvis was pornographic way back when. Parents burned their kids' Tales from the Crypt comics as early as 50 years ago [15:56] Loony Frog: kayako: i like that idea of fixed up avatars until they learn their way around [15:56] Smileyfax Palmer: Hm. What if children were chaperoned at all times? [15:56] Aldrif Avro: What puzzles me about all this is that, no kidding, the only "porn" I find is when I try to find a nurse's uniform to wear--they're outrageous! I hang out in educational settings, and I"m just never, er, exposed. What keeps our students from buying raunchy magazines in RL? I guess I'm just naive about all this, but if students are old enough to be on the adult grid, why can't they make adult (X or PG) choices? [15:56] Greyce Congrejo: A logistical issue [15:56] Claudia Linden: AJ....these are college level courses right? AJ Brooks: I have two teachers in my school who teach sexuality and one who teaches deviate behavious - That would be a pretty progressive high school. ;D [15:56] AJ Brooks: yes. college level. lol VERY progressive. but they do teach sex ed in HS. and THAT would be forbidden based on some of these standarads. being talked about here [15:57] Narris Lorefield: The waltz was considered dirty dancing, liberal was once conservative. Yes, values do change with time [15:57] Greyce Congrejo: SL needs to consider the needs of those of us at the HS level [15:57] RobertKlein Dogpatch: There are not two internet grids. sites are monitored as best they can. [15:57] Greyce Congrejo: We want to create virtual classrooms [15:57] Loony Frog: i had a parent who wanted us to teach their special ed child masturbation and ejaculation. unbelieveable [15:57] AJ Brooks: oh my [15:58] Saul Vaher: My point is that what is pornography today is a shameful story of censorship tomorrow [15:58] SpelNJLT Thibedeau: whoa! that's a bit much! [15:58] Derrik Beck: greyce, it is a challenge with ssome HS kids over and some under 18, isn't it? [15:58] Philled Graves: Greyce aren't those needs addressed in the Teen Grid? [15:58] Greyce Congrejo: lol..to much information [15:58] Philled Graves: what am i missing? [15:58] AstroGrl Enzo: hmm, what is it that people are actually concerned about? Do they not want HS students to see a naked ava? [15:58] Greyce Congrejo: The teen grid exclused 18 year olds [15:58] AstroGrl Enzo: or see sex acts? [15:58] Loony Frog: he was 18 and mom wanted to give us books. she didn't see it as porn but as education [15:58] AstroGrl Enzo: if they are on the main grid [15:58] SpelNJLT Thibedeau: I'd have to say that although I am "of age" i don't want to see xxx content [15:58] Greyce Congrejo: so many of our kids can't access [15:58] Philled Graves: I see [15:58] AstroGrl Enzo: I'm sorry but it may be better here that irl [15:58] Philled Graves: students who exceed 18 during school year. got it [15:59] Greyce Congrejo: yes [15:59] SpelNJLT Thibedeau: it's hard to avoid in SL sometimes [15:59] Fiona Wobbit: I suppose if sexuality were taught properly at home it wouldn't be such a big issue. [15:59] Loony Frog: i don't think i would feel comfortable with students who were at mature sites while i was there [15:59] Greyce Congrejo: A liability issue [15:59] Fiona Wobbit: yes, it is hard to avoid sometimes! [15:59] AJ Brooks: so why don't people age verify here. hard to avoid? [15:59] Claudia Linden: How many of you here are working with teens under 18? [15:59] AJ Brooks: I thin yo uahve to go and look for it [15:59] Narris Lorefield: Personally, just tax the public directly for pornography, and require age verification before any content is shown [15:59] Greyce Congrejo: I am [15:59] AJ Brooks: but I tend to stay off the mainland [15:59] Philled Graves: Lindens, couldn't an account setting be establishe on the teen grid querying folks approaching 18 about remaining in grid for term? [15:59] Doraemon Howley: i am [15:59] Loony Frog: i did [15:59] Penelope Drucker: students could access extreme sex stuff here at the click of a button, they cant do that in the real world [15:59] Ziggy Moonflower: i did [16:00] Saul Vaher: I really don't see how you could justify banning anything from total public consumption for those under 18. [16:00] AstroGrl Enzo: it is easy to avoid sexual content here. its called a TP [16:00] Doraemon Howley: actually they can...on the internet [16:00] AJ Brooks: Pene - we disagree. there is MUCH more on the web that they can find than here [16:00] Penelope Drucker: the tp\ also gives immediate access [16:00] Claudia Linden: Interesting concept Philled. [16:00] SpelNJLT Thibedeau: my students (college level) when preparing for a learning experience a few of them did stumble on hardcore porn [16:00] AJ Brooks: and its EASY to find on the web [16:00] Saul Vaher: I didn't say "Do it" - I said "Justify doing it" [16:00] Claudia Linden: I'm very aware of challenge of mixed age groups. Definitely exploring that one. [16:00] SpelNJLT Thibedeau: i was worried about contining research using campus facilities [16:00] Penelope Drucker: but here they can interact wiht it. engage inti. it [16:00] Greyce Congrejo: And they need to be taught the responsibility to TP [16:00] Narris Lorefield: I assure, there's some 14 old year kid out there right now, looking at pornography [16:01] Penelope Drucker: of course there is [16:01] AJ Brooks: and its easy to find - on the web [16:01] RobertKlein Dogpatch: in time SL will become like the rest of the internet and parents will just have to monitor their kids closely or rely on some kind of filtering software by a third or even first party. [16:01] AJ Brooks: simple search and BAM [16:01] Movies1963 Beck: personally I worry about teens in real life bring guns to school......I think that should be the focus instead of cartoon boobs [16:01] Loony Frog: they can access their daddy's porn magazines but we don't have to condone it [16:01] Greyce Congrejo: We deal with that as well [16:01] Penelope Drucker: but we arent talking about parental control. we area talking about a school environment [16:01] Fiona Wobbit: I think jsut having the option to filter in SL would be a good move [16:01] Smileyfax Palmer: Perhaps they should be taught to just act responsibly about porn. [16:02] Claudia Linden: filter what Fiona? [16:02] Greyce Congrejo: AMEN Smiley [16:02] Fiona Wobbit: porn [16:02] AJ Brooks: act responsibilkty - teens - about porn [16:02] Philled Graves: why should online social environments be in the job of parenting? [16:02] AstroGrl Enzo: i think the war sims pose a much larger treat than the porn sims. People can transend violence easier to rl than having sex. [16:02] Narris Lorefield: We do what we can, to point at something as an excuse to ignore something, is going to cause something to get worse, not better [16:02] AJ Brooks: I dont' know about girls - since I was never one - IRL that is. :-) [16:02] Movies1963 Beck: personally I worry about teens in real life bring guns to school......I think that should be the focus instead of cartoon boobs........cartoon boobs never killed a kid like guns have [16:02] Greyce Congrejo: lol..hey we can try [16:02] RobertKlein Dogpatch: is porn the only reason to have multiple grids? [16:02] AJ Brooks: But I WAS a teen boy - and let me tell you [16:02] Penelope Drucker: I absolutely agree they should be taught about how to evaluate and make good choices but I dont do that in a red light district in my town [16:02] AJ Brooks: at 14 or 15 - there's nothing stopping us [16:02] AJ Brooks: lol [16:02] Greyce Congrejo: true [16:02] Doraemon Howley: i agree :) [16:02] AJ Brooks: godo question - what about other content that is NOT porn [16:03] Greyce Congrejo: We also worry about predators [16:03] Saul Vaher: A simple parental lock would solve all of this. [16:03] AJ Brooks: preditors, violence [16:03] RobertKlein Dogpatch: what kind of predators? [16:03] Loony Frog: i worry that some of the 14 year olds would be influenced by an 18 yo in ways that aren't appropriate [16:03] Claudia Linden: What would a simple parental lock look like? [16:03] Trinity Coulter: how do you have a simple parental lock in Second Life? [16:03] Greyce Congrejo: Sexual adult perverts [16:03] RobertKlein Dogpatch: Net Nanny SL edition :) [16:03] Derrik Beck: true in RL too though Loony [16:03] AJ Brooks: NetNanny has major flaws [16:03] Saul Vaher: As in, if parents logged in before their kids started playing [16:03] Loony Frog: i have explained here in SC that at 17, you are considered an adult in court [16:03] Narris Lorefield: Children and young people are impressionable and having content that affects the mind like pornography can be damaging [16:03] Saul Vaher: Set passcodes [16:03] Greyce Congrejo: Absolutely, Derrik [16:04] Saul Vaher: for mature content [16:04] Penelope Drucker: but we are talking about educators using this for their students [16:04] Grinn Pidgeon: in real life, we only control our campuses and classrooms, not our surrounding communities; why should it be different in SL? We teach at all levels about personal and civic responsibility, but if we ban teens from the main grid, we make it appealing as a forbidden substance. I do understand parental griping, but as educators we have to have principles of openness and inquiry. [16:04] RobertKlein Dogpatch: what is it that we are really trying to protect otheres from in sl? [16:04] Efuturist Daviau: afk [16:04] Philled Graves: i'm sorry but that, again, is putting a social enterprise in teh role of parenting [16:04] AJ Brooks: we can't even control our campus - leaast of all from violence [16:04] Penelope Drucker: because is as if we are sitting in the middle of a red light district [16:04] Loony Frog: schools filter the internet, why not filter SL [16:04] Penelope Drucker: it is only a click away [16:05] AJ Brooks: i think peopel way over state the porn in SL [16:05] Derrik Beck: i think lots of teens are smarter than us about filters and how to get around them,,,, not sur ei see them as a solution [16:05] Narris Lorefield: I don't recall being shot when I went to high school [16:05] Greyce Congrejo: Those of us at the HS level have to contend with CIPA..written into our AUP's [16:05] SpelNJLT Thibedeau: I had to do a lot of work with my university's OIT to just unlock ports to allow SL to run on the campus network. my concern would be if they saw all the things that are accessible in SL we'd be cut off [16:05] AJ Brooks: you really have to go out and look for it - or end up in the wrong sim [16:05] Kayako Mayako: While happily I have managed to avoid seeing much of anything "adult" in SL, isn't there a bit of a difference between porn on the internet and in a magazine and interactive 3-D porn? Or am I missing something here? (BTW, I know I am missing something when it comes to what is interesting about naked cartoon characters?) [16:05] Mercury Barnes: It's easy to find AJ, very easy. [16:05] Penelope Drucker: oh you have to to be kidding [16:05] RobertKlein Dogpatch: same as the internet AJ [16:05] Derrik Beck: what is CIPA Greyce? [16:05] Fiona Wobbit: Grinn - maybe an awareness-raising orientation on uses and abuses of SL [16:05] Loony Frog: i did go somewhere and a naked man was running around lol [16:05] Claudia Linden: Greyce, can you elaborate: Greyce Congrejo: Those of us at the HS level have to contend with CIPA..written into our AUP's [16:05] Greyce Congrejo: You're right Derrik,, ours can circumvent any filter [16:05] AJ Brooks: TO FIND [16:05] SpelNJLT Thibedeau: our university blocks EVERYTHING! lol [16:05] Penelope Drucker: I was saerching for GROCERIES [16:06] AJ Brooks: you ahve to go and look for it [16:06] Penelope Drucker: and got all these bdsm sites come up [16:06] Greyce Congrejo: Child Internet Protection Act [16:06] Mercury Barnes: And the rabbit hole goes much deeper here than on videos or web pages -- the social "person to person" makes it more intense. [16:06] Penelope Drucker: and the best groceries to be had [16:06] AJ Brooks: I'm at this since January 07 and have only stumbled on it twice - quite by accident - and that was because an LM was bad both times [16:06] Greyce Congrejo: Federal Lae. Law [16:06] Penelope Drucker: was at a very extreme bdsm site. go figure [16:06] Philled Graves: every college and university is different.. teh college i just took over at was filtering myspace. that was the first thing i fix'd. ;-) [16:06] AJ Brooks: but the myspace thing was p2p issues, right - not content [16:07] SpelNJLT Thibedeau: they did filter myspace at my U too [16:07] Pathfinder Linden: heh [16:07] Claudia Linden: What univerisity are you at, SpelNJLT Thibedeau? [16:07] Movies1963 Beck: SpelNJLT Thibedeau maybe your school should worry about real date rape,under aged drinking and pregnancy,they're going to ban sl on your campus because of virtual cartoon sex? [16:07] Philled Graves: filtering/sensorship is, please forgive the soapbox, but the death of higher learning [16:07] SpelNJLT Thibedeau: Norfolk State University [16:07] Greyce Congrejo: Filtering is the lazy way out [16:07] AJ Brooks: I agree Philled [16:07] Greyce Congrejo: Totally unacceptable [16:07] Trinity Coulter: Second Life is not really set up to be filtered easily anyway [16:07] Philled Graves: agreed [16:07] Mercury Barnes: Filtering even SPAM occasionally becomes a "controversial topic" on our campus -- we'll never filter for content. [16:07] Saul Vaher: Absurd. Why not ban Xbox Live for the people who put the voice chat on through their speakers [16:07] AJ Brooks: and parents are going to be parents - if they are not taking responsiblity for their kids now - they are also probably not complaining about these types of things [16:08] Saul Vaher: Why not ban the Internet? [16:08] AJ Brooks: YEAH! [16:08] Philled Graves: and that was the argument i made to the deaens who demanded the filter [16:08] AJ Brooks: BAN THE INTERNET [16:08] Philled Graves: works fo rme [16:08] Fiona Wobbit: How 'bout a "warning you are entreing porn" notice [16:08] AJ Brooks: everyone - grab your pitchforks - folllow me [16:08] Greyce Congrejo: lolslippery slope... [16:08] Saul Vaher: Why not ban MS Paint [16:08] Philled Graves: i'll just quite and go drive a truck [16:08] AJ Brooks: lol [16:08] Greyce Congrejo: American Gothic [16:08] Smileyfax Palmer: Let's all just poke our eyes out, that ought to fix everything. [16:08] Trinity Coulter: Today's topic will be: Mature and PG Content: Should there be separate grids? [16:08] Prospero Frobozz: Yeah... we've veered pretty far off topic [16:08] Greyce Congrejo: Sorry, we digress [16:08] Trinity Coulter: :) [16:08] AJ Brooks: i hav a vivid imagination - so I guess a labotomy is in my future (god forbid) [16:08] RobertKlein Dogpatch: oh yeah [16:09] Zotarah Shepherd: Can the PG and Mature sims be seperated like the islands were divided on the TG? [16:09] Prospero Frobozz: there is a difference between banning porn, etc., and having different grids [16:09] Penelope Drucker: that tends to happen here [16:09] AJ Brooks: well - they are all tied together. no? [16:09] Philled Graves: access to mature conent is an issue of parenting.. and personal/family parental boundries and not the role of educators [16:09] Mercury Barnes: Might work if what was annouced by LL and IBM grows to fruition. [16:09] AJ Brooks: having a different grid IS banning pron [16:09] Fiona Wobbit: I agree with Philled [16:09] AJ Brooks: now - the real solution - openSim. have your own server - determine your own rules. then LL Is out of the parenting game [16:09] Ziggy Moonflower: maybe not a different grid, but a mature Continent with age verification [16:09] Zotarah Shepherd: Some sims require Age verification to enter. [16:10] Mercury Barnes: Yes, and we kind of have that with closed islands already. [16:10] SpelNJLT Thibedeau: I'd disagree with Philled though [16:10] RobertKlein Dogpatch: again, you would have to define exactly what it is you are trying to prevent between the grids. [16:10] Claudia Linden: Good question Zotarah. Though there is significant difference in scale between estates in TSL and estates on SL. [16:10] AJ Brooks: you want your students to come to the main grid for content - be their guest [16:10] Trinity Coulter: ok.... just from a technical standpoint it is not possible to use technology to do this filtering [16:10] AstroGrl Enzo: I disagree somewhat Philled, i believe as educators we need to present complete information so that our students can make correct decisions for them [16:10] Trinity Coulter: not possible [16:10] Saul Vaher: Again, this is absurd because you assume Non-Mature content wouldn't offend anybody. Which is impossible. [16:10] AstroGrl Enzo: we need to also inform them of consequwences [16:10] AJ Brooks: Ok - if we can reel in here for one sec [16:10] Greyce Congrejo: I agree Astro [16:10] AJ Brooks: is it just content? someone mentioned violence [16:10] Philled Graves: i agree they should be in a position to facilitate dialog, but not in the role of establishing limits/boundries [16:10] AJ Brooks: and preditors [16:11] Saul Vaher: Some right-wing mother is gonna see a samurai sword in non-mature areas and flip [16:11] AJ Brooks: and nobody seems to want tot ake that up [16:11] Mercury Barnes: Content is the tamest aspect....:) [16:11] Doraemon Howley: i think one of the reasons that i can think of about having separate grids is perhaps the reputation issue that has. because there are quite alot of mature stuff going on in SL, it makes it difficult for people to use it as a formal learning platform [16:11] Mercury Barnes: Agreed Doraemon. [16:11] AJ Brooks thinks to himslef, "I knew this one was going to be tough to control" and chuckles [16:11] Zotarah Shepherd: Some M sims are not really porn but does show nkaed bodies. - like some biology related sims - HealthInfo Island [16:11] SpelNJLT Thibedeau: agreed doraemon [16:11] Prospero Frobozz: I think Doraemon may hit the nail on the head there [16:11] Greyce Congrejo: Not if we set the parameters [16:11] AstroGrl Enzo: I give an explicit description when I tell my students about sl. I would never just say "this is cool check it out I'm on it, come ask me questions about the test" I need to tell them what they are getting into and what potential consequences are [16:12] RobertKlein Dogpatch: once there is a laundry list of items or issues to be aware of then you can decide whether you should have multiple grids. [16:12] Trinity Coulter: yes, that's a good point, Dor [16:12] AstroGrl Enzo: after that, the decision is theres. [16:12] Terran Timeless: think context a second b4 content [16:12] Philled Graves: again, i'll ask teh question why are 'we' setting parameters? [16:12] Zotarah Shepherd: Could there be another rating for XXX content sims? [16:12] Fiona Wobbit: I think astrogrl is on the rigth track [16:12] AJ Brooks: right, philled [16:12] AstroGrl Enzo: exactly, Philled [16:12] Aldrif Avro: Would parameters include university and dpt. policies, such as rules for conduct in student handbooks? [16:12] Greyce Congrejo: So that students know what is appropriate in an educational realm [16:12] AJ Brooks: contentoius content here in America may not be so in Brasil, or Germany, or Spain, or China [16:12] AstroGrl Enzo: yes Greyce [16:12] SpelNJLT Thibedeau: or acknowledgements for the Health sim that was mentioned [16:12] Philled Graves: student conduct codes are no different in here than down the street [16:12] RobertKlein Dogpatch: right AJ [16:13] Philled Graves: and subject to the individual institutions [16:13] Loony Frog: in SC, teachers r supposed to be the experts so they r expected to set parameters on things that happen at school [16:13] Philled Graves: and for them to enforece. again, not the role of the platform [16:13] Mercury Barnes: No Aldrif -- existing policies of behavior likely already apply (and have since the Usenet days). [16:13] Greyce Congrejo: We once lifted the filters so that our kids could work on a project...explained the respunsibility invilved [16:13] AJ Brooks: so not only are we asking for a girdach ngeover for a small perectnatge of SL users (education and students) but also for a small percentatge of users (US - 35% or so I think) [16:13] Greyce Congrejo: Not one student violated that trust [16:13] Pathfinder Linden: would it be safe to say....that educators would like the "seriously mature" stuff on the Grid to be somehow more clearly labelled and not easy to accidentally access by adults? [16:13] Saul Vaher: That would just devolve into a big University has the strictest SL enformcement and this one is better! I'm going here! [16:13] Greyce Congrejo: and they were 15 year olds [16:13] RobertKlein Dogpatch: Should LL take on the role of defining what is appropriate for the entire planet? [16:13] AJ Brooks: I'd say [16:13] Saul Vaher: It's like, "My college gets HBO and yours doesn't." [16:13] Fiona Wobbit: Why have conduct rules if a student will end up wandering into a bdsm and just out of curiosity investigate. Do you think rules will be followed? [16:13] Grinn Pidgeon: is there a different wayes a geography solution [16:13] AJ Brooks: perhaps a catgory beyond Mature [16:14] Mercury Barnes: Yes, that's a fair statement Pathfinder. [16:14] SpelNJLT Thibedeau: our school did cancel HBO because of the show "real sex" [16:14] Greyce Congrejo: Yes, Fiona, if the conditions are right [16:14] Penelope Drucker: greyce, you let your 15 year olds come in SL? [16:14] Philled Graves: i'm sorry but no [16:14] Greyce Congrejo: No, we lifted internet filters [16:14] AJ Brooks: Perhaps, expland the rating system [16:14] Polaris Grayson: parameters will not work... the culture shock will be too intense plus the mistakes of new avies would create new targets for amusement [16:14] Fiona Wobbit: Yes, pathfinder [16:14] AJ Brooks: now we have PG and Mature. but even movies have more than that [16:14] Penelope Drucker: ah okay [16:14] Derrik Beck: if we're moving to other potentially harmful things, like weapons or alcohol [16:15] Penelope Drucker: sorry- misundertsootd [16:15] AJ Brooks: G, PG, R, and X [16:15] Terran Timeless: who rates? [16:15] Philled Graves: exactly [16:15] AJ Brooks: self rated - violaters get tossed, like now [16:15] Greyce Congrejo: The instructor? [16:15] Philled Graves: my expcetations of R may be somebodye elses XXX [16:15] Terran Timeless: yes [16:15] Saul Vaher: We don't want to be 1984 here. Big Brother will only materialize if we go the route of What We Say Is Off Limits Is Off Limits [16:15] Narris Lorefield: I once had a filter, until it blocked my email for having words in it ToS forbidding certain content [16:15] Saul Vaher: It HAS to be in player/parent control [16:15] Kayako Mayako: Yes to Pathfinder Linden. Further, not only more clearly labeled but like the ability to uncheck the mature box in the search function to be able to accidently avoid contact with mature material. [16:15] Loony Frog: ppl understand movie ratings, rate the grid like that but i think some PG should be R [16:15] Saul Vaher: Not the scool. school [16:15] Mercury Barnes: Where would the Crack Den fit AJ? (Serious question). [16:15] Saul Vaher: cops. Government [16:16] Philled Graves: and those performing sexual favors for a fix? [16:16] AJ Brooks: well - a crack den in SL is different that one in RL, No? [16:16] Saul Vaher: As soon as someone says "This is off limits," everything is. [16:16] Philled Graves: why is it differetn? [16:16] Terran Timeless: and might be a good learning opportunity

[16:16] AJ Brooks: because you don't get high in SL - and you dont' get addicted, sick or die [16:16] Philled Graves: i have a huge issue with any notion of sensorship here folks [16:16] Greyce Congrejo: Not if a teacher delineates the difference [16:16] AJ Brooks: or have to steal to get your fix [16:16] Terran Timeless: right [16:16] Mercury Barnes: Correct -- strict role play -- some of the best I've seen -- very challenging to "play a character to the core." [16:16] Greyce Congrejo: and the expectations for the class [16:16] Narris Lorefield: So, Saul, should we resort to anarchy, then? [16:16] Derrik Beck: but AJ, does it make you more likely to try in RL? [16:17] AJ Brooks: i don't think so [16:17] Penelope Drucker: we noticed that Philled [16:17] AJ Brooks: but I don't know [16:17] Prospero Frobozz: Saul : but *already* there is stuff that is off limits. In SL. Elsewhere. [16:17] Philled Graves: i like to state teh pobious P [16:17] Prospero Frobozz: Does that mean we're already at total censorship? [16:17] Philled Graves: and i can't type [16:17] Penelope Drucker: heheeh [16:17] AJ Brooks: I smoked a hookei once in SL with some friends (the freebie that is going around) but I never thought to smkoe in RL [16:17] Philled Graves: *obvious [16:17] Derrik Beck: i mean the concern sshould be about the influence, nit the exact nature of the content. not* [16:17] Ann Seetan: Remember, you won' t get the support from the school board if they get any parent complaint. [16:17] RobertKlein Dogpatch: did you inhale AJ? [16:17] Terran Timeless: again, context [16:17] AstroGrl Enzo: lol [16:17] Penelope Drucker: hahahaahlolol [16:17] Greyce Congrejo: rotfl [16:18] AJ Brooks: yes - I'm not running for president [16:18] Mercury Barnes: Correct Derrik, which is why I agree with the rules that under 18's shouldn't be on the main grid. [16:18] Philled Graves: he inhaled for Bill [16:18] RobertKlein Dogpatch: LOL [16:18] AJ Brooks: lol [16:18] Loony Frog: @ann that is the way it is here in SC [16:18] Saul Vaher: There is a difference between total anarchy and letting the people decide what to consume for themselves [16:18] Prospero Frobozz: Re: drugs and inhaling in SL... my wife gets worried in SL when her av gets stuck under water, but I keep telling her we don't have to breathe in SL.... [16:18] Greyce Congrejo: gave one up for the team [16:18] Terran Timeless: who are we caring for, or afraid of? [16:18] AJ Brooks: I need 17s on the main grid - since some of my college students are 17 [16:18] Ann Seetan: same in AR [16:18] Penelope Drucker: Philled - do you think teens should be allowed here? [16:18] AJ Brooks: and those in HS who turn 18 and get kicked from the TG - its not fair to them [16:18] Greyce Congrejo: Ahhh.AJ my dilemma exactly [16:18] Fiona Wobbit: I agree with saul [16:18] AstroGrl Enzo: as a college professor who has minors in my class, then my students can' find me in sl if I'm on the maid grid [16:18] Philled Graves: i think that is a personal paraental decision [16:18] Narris Lorefield: Ah, consumer sovereignty [16:18] Claudia Linden: Common problem in universities in Europe, AJ [16:18] MystiTool HUD 1.0.23: Entering chat range: RobertKlein Dogpatch (7m) [16:18] Philled Graves: and not the role of LL [16:19] AJ Brooks: I know, Claudia. :-( [16:19] Penelope Drucker: but we are educators [16:19] Claudia Linden: (mixed age challenge) [16:19] Prospero Frobozz: I think even in the US -- a fair number of freshmen are 17, esp. in the first semester. [16:19] Saul Vaher: I guarantee any 14 year old kid has seen or done worse things than anything they'll easily find on SL [16:19] Penelope Drucker: who want to educate their students here [16:19] Mercury Barnes: I still think making teaching SIM "special places" where teens can meet adults" could work. [16:19] AJ Brooks: fair number - I dont' thnk so - som, yes [16:19] Philled Graves: right on Saul [16:19] Greyce Congrejo: Not to mention PSEOP [16:19] Philled Graves: I know i had at 14 [16:19] Prospero Frobozz: Saul : I'm pretty sure you're wrong when you say "any" in your guarantee [16:19] RobertKlein Dogpatch: Why not just have your own grids and then you can decide what is appropriate for your classes? [16:19] Penelope Drucker: but this is interactive [16:19] Philled Graves: so is what they're doing [16:19] Saul Vaher: On XBox live the other day, I talked to a 14 year old who had already had sex and was criticising me for asking why. [16:19] AJ Brooks: Robert - community [16:19] Penelope Drucker: that is different than finding stuff on the web [16:19] AJ Brooks: SL is all about community [16:19] Penelope Drucker: this is intereacting with real people [16:19] Narris Lorefield: However, the minds of children and youth should be considered a marketplace in any regard [16:19] RobertKlein Dogpatch: grids can be connected AJ [16:19] AJ Brooks: I want my students to meet YOU all [16:20] Narris Lorefield: not* [16:20] Fiona Wobbit: lol, saul [16:20] Terran Timeless: this gets a little gritty [16:20] Ann Seetan: I am wanting to bring this to our district, we have the computers, they have security blocks, I would have to get permission to bring this to my school. [16:20] Terran Timeless: that's life without the pain [16:20] Greyce Congrejo: It's a complex issue [16:20] AJ Brooks: ok - we need to kind of wind this down - and I want to do one of my famous straw polls. YES or NO - should there be separate grids for mature and PG content. simple yes or no [16:20] Philled Graves: NO [16:20] Greyce Congrejo: YES [16:20] Smileyfax Palmer: NO. [16:20] Loony Frog: this is the first time i've been here and i've enjoyed it [16:20] Terran Timeless: No [16:20] Ann Seetan: Yes [16:20] Prospero Frobozz: AJ : not enough options :) [16:20] AstroGrl Enzo: no [16:20] Grinn Pidgeon: no [16:20] SpelNJLT Thibedeau: YES [16:20] Loony Frog: yes [16:20] Philled Graves: hell no [16:20] Narris Lorefield: YES [16:20] Zotarah Shepherd: no [16:21] Mercury Barnes: YES [16:21] Claudia Linden: Ann, you can call on educators who have been successful in convincing their admins to advise you. I can put you in touch w a few if you'd like. [16:21] Saul Vaher: NO [16:21] RobertKlein Dogpatch: YES for now [16:21] Doraemon Howley: no.. at least not in SL [16:21] Greyce Congrejo: Well, maybe lol [16:21] AJ Brooks: has everyone had their say - just yes or no [16:21] Saul Vaher: Yes [16:21] Penelope Drucker: no [16:21] AJ Brooks: ok - next question [16:21] Ann Seetan: I would greatly appreciate that [16:21] Prospero Frobozz: As stated, I'd say yes [16:21] AJ Brooks: shoudl there be an Educational Grid - YES or NO [16:21] Greyce Congrejo: YES!!!! [16:21] Narris Lorefield: There is already separation existing. Let's finish the job and kick them [16:21] Mercury Barnes: Yes [16:21] Terran Timeless: yes [16:21] Smileyfax Palmer: YES [16:21] Philled Graves: NO [16:21] SpelNJLT Thibedeau: YES!!!!! [16:21] Saul Vaher: Sure. [16:21] RobertKlein Dogpatch: YES [16:21] Loony Frog: yes [16:21] Grinn Pidgeon: maybe [16:21] Ann Seetan: I have only been at this for a short time, and I am still learning myself [16:21] Claudia Linden: claudia@lindenlab.com [16:21] AstroGrl Enzo: maybe [16:21] Prospero Frobozz: No -- in that education shouldn't be ghettoized [16:21] Doraemon Howley: yes [16:21] AJ Brooks: (no definition of content in that question) [16:21] Teaghan McCallen: yes [16:22] Penelope Drucker: only if the mature content here is restricted [16:22] Zotarah Shepherd: no [16:22] Philled Graves: perfect phrasing prospero [16:22] AstroGrl Enzo: second thought... no [16:22] Prospero Frobozz: any more than there should be an educational internet [16:22] AJ Brooks: great. we stil lahve about 10 minutes [16:22] Greyce Congrejo: OK, Prospero, I see your point [16:22] AJ Brooks: and many people stay around. afgter the meeting time. I wanted to get into it and forget a couple of announcement [16:22] Philled Graves: have to jet... thank you all for a simulating debate [16:22] AJ Brooks: the transcripts have moved to the HUGE building next to this one [16:22] Greyce Congrejo: Bye Philled [16:23] AJ Brooks: we meet each week from 3:30pm to 4:30pm. right here [16:23] Zotarah Shepherd: There is too much great content on the MG that we would loose if there was a seperate educational grid. [16:23] AJ Brooks: and dont' forget about SLCC - if you need info, IM me privately [16:23] Terran Timeless: your right ZO [16:23] Pathfinder Linden nods at Zotarah [16:23] AJ Brooks: also - if you want to join the SL EDCUATION ROUNDTBLE group - search ir or IM me [16:23] Narris Lorefield: Can I sign up to have the transcript and/or minutes sent to me? [16:23] Terran Timeless: the real ethnography [16:23] AJ Brooks: no - you need to come back here to get them [16:23] Smileyfax Palmer: I don't think that all educational content would -- or should -- migrate off of main SL if a separate education grid was made. [16:23] Loony Frog: that is true, and what i consider educational, u might not [16:23] AJ Brooks: join the gropu - I'll post a note. sorry to interrupt the flow of the conversation [16:24] Narris Lorefield: Send me an invite, please [16:24] AJ Brooks: please IM me if you want - this will get lost in the chat history. I promise to respond before signing off [16:24] RobertKlein Dogpatch: Content can be reproduced or even crawled. [16:24] AJ Brooks: craweled? [16:24] RobertKlein Dogpatch: yes [16:24] AJ Brooks: what does that mean? [16:24] RobertKlein Dogpatch: identified [16:24] AJ Brooks: ah [16:25] RobertKlein Dogpatch: searched for. indexed [16:25] AJ Brooks: oh - ok -= web eference. got it [16:25] RobertKlein Dogpatch: si si [16:25] Prospero Frobozz: But if you're going to crawl and reproduce content, then what is the point of the separate grid? [16:25] AJ Brooks: so - did we ever get to the violence issue? [16:25] RobertKlein Dogpatch: clean up. refine [16:25] Prospero Frobozz: Lots 'o' work [16:26] Loony Frog: thanks for a great debate but i have to go now [16:26] AJ Brooks: nodoby wants to take up violence, huh? [16:26] Prospero Frobozz: Nobody's going to individually filter the variety that's available on the MG... any project that does so will lose the benefit of hooking into the main grid. AJ : I would take up violence, but then somebody might get hurt :) [16:26] Terran Timeless: setting the boundaries of the learning context is our job [16:26] Grinn Pidgeon: violence as obscenity? [16:26] AJ Brooks: I see BDSM more about violence and mysogeny than pornographhy [16:26] RobertKlein Dogpatch: the MG is just a starting point [16:26] Mercury Barnes: What aspect AJ, combat sims, swords, or street violence? [16:26] AJ Brooks: yes. violence does more damamge to our kids, I think - that prono [16:27] Greyce Congrejo: Absolutely [16:27] AJ Brooks: they look at dirty magazine and get off - they play violent vidoe games and become violent [16:27] RobertKlein Dogpatch: hmmm. has that been proven? [16:27] Greyce Congrejo: Much more insidious [16:27] AJ Brooks: yes [16:27] AJ Brooks: yes yes. our kids ar much more violent thatn in the past. before grand theft auto [16:27] Greyce Congrejo: I live it every day [16:27] AJ Brooks: they are desensitized to violence [16:27] Terran Timeless: are we talking adult children? [16:28] Greyce Congrejo: not in my case [16:28] Narris Lorefield: It's a little hard to point at a specific instance in time [16:28] Greyce Congrejo: kids of all ages [16:28] Prospero Frobozz: AJ : that's hardly proof [16:28] Mercury Barnes: I just kind of walk away from it, here, and in RL. [16:28] AJ Brooks: there are studies - I don't have my hands on them at the moment. but there DEFINITLY are studies that prove violent video games increase violent tendencies in males. young males [16:29] Narris Lorefield: Maybe you could bring it up at the next meeting, with the studies [16:29] Polaris Grayson: why did csi intoduce the hack and slash ideal of sl in the show [16:29] Mercury Barnes: So maybe having these you males chase young females would take their mind off violence? [16:29] Greyce Congrejo: for ratings [16:29] AJ Brooks: lol [16:29] SpelNJLT Thibedeau: lol [16:29] AJ Brooks: ok [16:29] RobertKlein Dogpatch: Life was pretty gritty and hard for people living on the streets in the 1800's and early 1900's. Violence was everywhere for them. [16:29] AJ Brooks: i'm good with that (just kidding) [16:29] Mercury Barnes: I'm serious too -- I've watched several "ruffians," decide they rather chase skirts. [16:30] AJ Brooks: Robert - you know that is different and you know that is not what I'm talking about. Colimbine. Virginia Tech [16:30] RobertKlein Dogpatch: Violence is not limited to just our times. [16:30] AJ Brooks: the list goes on [16:30] AstroGrl Enzo: darn, hate when I crash myself [16:30] Greyce Congrejo: No one said that it was [16:30] Narris Lorefield: Is your kid more violent than Tom Sawyer meeting a new kid? [16:30] Greyce Congrejo: Yes [16:30] AJ Brooks: we are more violent now than at any time in history (person to person - not war or anythign liek that [16:30] RobertKlein Dogpatch: hmmm [16:30] Greyce Congrejo: Our kids use weapons now [16:30] AJ Brooks: beating somene up with your fists and killing someone with an automatic gun are different [16:30] Mercury Barnes: Or the Hardy boys (how many times do they get knocked out per book). [16:31] AJ Brooks: but that is not the topic here - the violence in the grid -t aht is where I was going [16:31] Greyce Congrejo: No comparison [16:31] RobertKlein Dogpatch: can that be said of the bow and arrow? [16:31] Mercury Barnes: It's surprisingly well controlled. [16:31] Prospero Frobozz: AJ : I do not believe that that's true. [16:31] AJ Brooks: I'll kill your whole clan with one automatice weapon while you load a second arrow - so yes [16:31] Prospero Frobozz: That we're more violent person-to-person right now than at any point in history. [16:31] AJ Brooks: person to person violence [16:31] Greyce Congrejo: And a bow and arrow take skill to use [16:31] Mercury Barnes: Many of the RP sims only allow certain groups to have certain types of weapons, and then their use has to be planned and approved. [16:31] Prospero Frobozz: Sure, there may be more mass murders due to weapon availability. [16:32] Mercury Barnes: Terribly easy to get ejected for breaking the rules. [16:32] Zotarah Shepherd: I would like to empower teens to recognize things that are not appropriate for them. I know some teens on the teen grid who are quick to eject anyone who is not appropriate. Guns on non combat sims... I hear stories. [16:32] RobertKlein Dogpatch: violence is part of our nature, some more so than otheres... [16:32] SpelNJLT Thibedeau: I'm not sure about that RobertKlein. [16:33] Terran Timeless: o come on [16:33] AJ Brooks: All I'm saying is that porn is not the only issue to be thning about [16:33] RobertKlein Dogpatch: right [16:33] Terran Timeless: right [16:33] Greyce Congrejo: I agree [16:33] Zotarah Shepherd: yes [16:33] AJ Brooks: with that - our time is up - feel free to stay, but if you ahve to leave - dont' feel bad about doing do [16:33] AstroGrl Enzo: the thing that worries me, is that someone could use this to design or plan something irl. use sl to test out strategies. but there's no way to prevent that here [16:33] Terran Timeless: ooo [16:33] SpelNJLT Thibedeau: exactly what i was thinking AstroGrl [16:33] Movies1963 Beck: oh come on [16:33] Terran Timeless: we need to do this research [16:33] Mercury Barnes: And what about swords -- very tight cliques with deeply ingrained approaches -- very much like martial arts in the real world (I have three Dojos near my land -- wonderful people in the Dojos). [16:33] Terran Timeless: to inform ourselves [16:33] Movies1963 Beck: they dont need sl to plan anything out [16:33] Prospero Frobozz: Sure, but alarmist statements about the extreme of violence are not going to lead to rational debate any more than alarmist statements about sexual permissiveness in front of kids [16:33] AJ Brooks: are we going to get into the whole "terrorists in SL'" conversation now? [16:34] Terran Timeless: answer these question [16:34] RobertKlein Dogpatch: yeah dojos! [16:34] Greyce Congrejo: alarmist? [16:34] SpelNJLT Thibedeau: it is absolutely possible [16:34] Pathfinder Linden: thanks for a great discussion. great to hear everyone's ideas and opinions around these topics. [16:34] Greyce Congrejo: We're just discussing issues [16:34] Movies1963 Beck: if a kid is going to do something they're going to get it done, they sure didn't need sl to plan out Calumbine [16:34] AstroGrl Enzo: I didn't mean to go there AJ, i was just commenting from an educator and what our school is talking about. we have to plan drills now for the "campus shooter". sucks [16:35] Zotarah Shepherd: There is organized combat and chaotic violence inacted from an emotional level rather than as sport. [16:35] Greyce Congrejo: Security plans have become a way of life [16:35] AstroGrl Enzo: I agree Movies, we aren't going to stop them. hmmm, how about that for porn/sex. ? [16:35] Terran Timeless: parents wantto hear what we are doing to protect their kids [16:35] Derrik Beck: normal psych demos that are about eyewitness memory get people in trouble these days [16:35] RobertKlein Dogpatch: violence has always been there, the strategies for dealing with it is what changes. [16:36] AstroGrl Enzo: all we can do is educate them [16:36] Ziggy Moonflower: must go to bed now, good night evrybody [16:36] Terran Timeless: as institutions [16:36] AstroGrl Enzo: of the good and the bad. bye ziggy [16:36] Derrik Beck: by Ziggy [16:36] Doraemon Howley: thanks everyone.. i shall go to bed too :) late in the UK [16:36] Greyce Congrejo: Bye Zig [16:36] AstroGrl Enzo: night dora [16:36] Derrik Beck: by Draemon. sorry [16:37] Greyce Congrejo: Bye Dora [16:37] RobertKlein Dogpatch: gnight everyone, great discussion. [16:37] Greyce Congrejo: Night.... [16:37] Zotarah Shepherd: Sometimes "protection" looks a lot like keeping kids ignorant of things they will eventually face in RL. At a certain stage of development they must learn. [16:37] AJ Brooks: thanks for coming everyone - hope to see you next week [16:37] Terran Timeless: night, first time, I'll be back [16:37] Zotarah Shepherd: Thanks AJ [16:37] Derrik Beck: thanks again for hosting [16:37] AJ Brooks: excellent terran, thanks for coming [16:37] Mercury Barnes: Thanks AJ, great as always...:) [16:37] AJ Brooks: my pleasure [16:37] Derrik Beck: very lively one this time [16:37] SpelNJLT Thibedeau: Thanks! it was great! [16:37] Movies1963 Beck: thank you AJ [16:37] Emporio Caproni ~ FX BodyLights: actived. [16:37] AJ Brooks: yes - very lively. lol [16:38] Greyce Congrejo: Thanks,AJ...provocative as always [16:38] Claudia Linden: thanks, everyone. Thanks AJ for facilitating. [16:38] AJ Brooks: Thanks for stopping by, Claudia [16:38] Zotarah Shepherd: Thanks for being here Claudia [16:38] AstroGrl Enzo: great for a first time here [16:38] Greyce Congrejo: Thank you! [16:38] AstroGrl Enzo: I'll be back for sure! [16:38] AJ Brooks: excellent. were here each week from 3:30pm to 4:30pm SLT and let me know if you need an invite to the group - IM me privately, I'll invite you before I sign off. nice of Path and Claudia to come by [16:40] Greyce Congrejo: Yes, quite an honor.... [16:40] Derrik Beck: yes [16:40] AJ Brooks: They are both so busy, I do apprecaite it [16:40] Movies1963 Beck: yes, intresting that the 3 Lindens stopped in [16:40] Zotarah Shepherd: Thanks for the great discussion AJ [16:40] AJ Brooks: 3? [16:40] AstroGrl Enzo: yes. very interesting and GOOD [16:40] Derrik Beck: though movies and I wanted to invite another Beck to keep them outnumbered...;-) [16:40] Zotarah Shepherd: Yes Pathfinder Prospero and Claudia [16:40] AJ Brooks: lol [16:40] Greyce Congrejo: lol [16:40] AJ Brooks: Prospero? [16:40] Zotarah Shepherd: lol [16:41] AJ Brooks: I think he was kidding about being a linden, no? [16:41] Zotarah Shepherd: yep. His alt. nope [16:41] AJ Brooks: really? wowo - three lindens [16:41] Movies1963 Beck: yes Prospero's a Linden [16:41] AstroGrl Enzo: Prospero was a linden in disquise [16:41] AJ Brooks: holy crap [16:41] Greyce Congrejo: whoooo [16:41] AJ Brooks: I thought it was just =joing around. *joking. wow - nice [16:41] Derrik Beck: wow [16:41] AJ Brooks: guess this topic resonates with them [16:41] Greyce Congrejo: And here I was arguing with him [16:41] Movies1963 Beck: lol his Linden name is Prospero Linden [16:41] Zotarah Shepherd: He is on Science Friday as his alt sometimes too. [16:41] AJ Brooks nods head [16:42] Greyce Congrejo: instead of being obsequious [16:42] AstroGrl Enzo: I think they need be at events like this [16:42] Greyce Congrejo: lol [16:42] AJ Brooks: purple anc clarvoyant [16:42] AstroGrl Enzo: much of education is moving on line [16:42] Movies1963 Beck: yes it's about time Lindens did some out reach [16:42] AJ Brooks: they do. they really do [16:42] AstroGrl Enzo: we are trying to find the best ways to do it. [16:42] Zotarah Shepherd: Yes I am glad they are listening and contributing to our discussions. [16:42] AJ Brooks: but they have jobs to do also - so they have to spare their time [16:42] AstroGrl Enzo: sl is a great way to do things [16:42] Greyce Congrejo: I'm glad you provided the venue, AJ [16:42] AJ Brooks: I'm honored. truly [16:43] Zotarah Shepherd: Well they are on SLT time mostly. [16:43] AJ Brooks: and to top it all off - I got my Moo cards today -a nd they ROCK [16:43] Greyce Congrejo: lol [16:43] Zotarah Shepherd: Moo cards? [16:43] AJ Brooks: yes. look them up [16:43] AstroGrl Enzo: I'm so excited. that past 2 days and I've come across 2 great things going on in sl! [16:43] AJ Brooks: google. very cool do it yourself cards [16:43] Zotarah Shepherd sighs [16:43] AJ Brooks: well Astrogrl, glad you came [16:43] Greyce Congrejo: I have to go landscape my house lol [16:44] AJ Brooks: this is definitely going to be bigger than one notecard again [16:44] AstroGrl Enzo: me too! Great idea. I need to find more of these discussions. [16:44] Zotarah Shepherd: Not many like this one. NMC has some [16:44] AJ Brooks blushes [16:44] AstroGrl Enzo: if you know of others let me know. [16:44] AJ Brooks: thanks Z [16:44] Zotarah Shepherd: ISTE [16:44] AJ Brooks: ISTE - but they gear more to k-12 [16:44] Greyce Congrejo: we really enjoy these discussions [16:44] Zotarah Shepherd: SLED had a meeting today [16:44] AJ Brooks: but they have GREAT stuff [16:44] AstroGrl Enzo: I've been going to NASA talks but that's more field specific for me [16:44] AJ Brooks: SLCC [16:44] Zotarah Shepherd: yes [16:45] AJ Brooks: I'm glad you do, Greyce. that means a lot to me [16:45] Zotarah Shepherd: Science Friday is also on the teen grid now. : ) [16:45] AJ Brooks: its imoprtant for there to be aforum for us all [16:45] AstroGrl Enzo: great! I've written all of them down, thanks everyone. SF is an another good one [16:45] AJ Brooks: ISTE does great stuff - and NMC [16:45] Zotarah Shepherd: BlackLibrary has one on Monday [16:45] Movies1963 Beck: AstroGrl Enzo do you use the search and look under events/discussions? [16:45] AJ Brooks: Buridan..... [16:46] Derrik Beck: i've tried science fridays...but i always seem to hav etoo mauch lag there...don't know why