080527

Second Life Education Roundtable May 27, 2008 Legal Issues

[14:27] You: HIII!!!! [14:27] MLani Montgomery: Hey, AJ [14:28] Storm Parx: I don't know about you all, but i had a hell of a time finding a non-slutty outfit here anyone have any consevative shopping tips? [14:28] MLani Montgomery: Ivalde [14:28] Miranda Llewellyn: there are some sensible tweeds available if you look lol lol [14:28] MLani Montgomery: She has a nice shop [14:28] Storm Parx: Thanks [14:28] MLani Montgomery: There are more and more shops advertising business attire for women. [14:28] Miranda Llewellyn: Librarians Island roflmao [14:29] Storm Parx: Thank god. My students would freak LOL [14:29] Josh1 Sands: hope the caus look is acceptable [14:29] Storm Parx: and that might be fun! [14:29] MLani Montgomery: Yes, I even have librarian hair...a bun in back with a pencil in it. [14:29] Josh1 Sands: LOL [14:29] Storm Parx: lol [14:29] You: feel free to grab a seat [14:29] Miranda Llewellyn: I look a bit anemic myself lol [14:29] You: there will alwyas been one more than needed we're going to start in a few minutes, give folks time to show up [14:30] MLani Montgomery: Again, folks, sorry about my clothing; I have a medieval sim and was wrestling with tenants before coming here. [14:30] You: Group chat for ISTE is being cranky. grrrr [14:30] Storm Parx: you look fine, really [14:30] You: its rejected my IM 9 times now [14:30] Rew Weatherwax: ack sorry lag.. [14:30] MLani Montgomery smiles [14:30] Kamsin Kazan: look fine to me MLani [14:31] Zotarah Shepherd: Hello everyone [14:31] You: welcome, fopkls - please do take a seat [14:31] Josh1 Sands: hi Zotarah [14:31] You: there will always be one more than needed [14:31] MLani Montgomery: Can you imagine starting my class? "And now, students, take out your wands..." [14:31] Zotarah Shepherd: Hi Josh [14:31] You: Z!!!!!!! [14:31] Zotarah Shepherd: hehe [14:31] Rew Weatherwax hopes she is not sitting on anyone [14:32] Kamsin Kazan: wand/stylus same difference :-) [14:32] MLani Montgomery giggles. [14:32] Topher Zwiers: wheeeeeeee [14:32] You: wow - we needed to go with the super sized table today i mean to start, lol [14:32] MLani Montgomery sings, "here we go 'round the mullberry bush..." [14:32] Zotarah Shepherd: Yay we are expanded [14:32] Kamsin Kazan: glad to see others enjoy the magical chairs as much as I do [14:32] You: oh - you want to 'round - sure - hang on [14:33] MLani Montgomery: oh nooooo, AJ! lol [14:33] Hannah Leominster: rofl [14:33] You: lol [14:33] Kamsin Kazan: rofl [14:33] MLani Montgomery: You devil. [14:33] Topher Zwiers: again again.... [14:33] You: maybe later [14:33] Topher Zwiers: ;-) [14:33] Zotarah Shepherd: hehehe Gee AJ I didn't know we would get a free E ticket ride today. [14:34] flopsie McArdle is Online [14:34] You: lol - its a big day here on CHSS ok - lets get started and we'll start out as we usually do Oh - but first [14:34] Rew Weatherwax waves hello to Movies [14:34] Zotarah Shepherd: Awww now we need a bigger table too [14:34] You: WElcome to the SL EDucation Roundtable [14:34] Movies1963 Beck: hi Rew [14:34] You: we meet every tuesday from 2:30pm to 3:30pm here on the CHSS Island we ALSO now have a group SL EDUCATION ROUNDTABLE if you can't find it AFTER THE MEETING, let me know and I'll invite you please do join our topic to start today is Second Life and legal issues in virtual worlds for those standing around, pelase do grab a seat there will alsways be one more then needed now - lets start out as we usually do if you woudl introuce yourself, where your from, what you do - and if you are an attorney, lawyer, or involved with the law, please say so everyone can type at once, we'll all catch up in chat history [14:36] Julynn Lilliehook: Pardon mE! [14:36] MLani Montgomery: I'm an assistant superintendent in an education service agency in Oregon. Not a lawyer. [14:37] Bisbee Writer: Hi, I'm a community college librarian [14:37] You: I am AJ Brooks, AJ Keltong in realy life, I am the Director of Emerging Instructinal Technologies for the College of Humanities and Social Sciences at Montclair State University in Northern NJ [14:37] Kamsin Kazan: Hi folks I'm a Librarian with a Canadian Community College - not a lawyer - realize I'll be a go to person when faculty have questions [14:37] Peri Afarensis: I am not a Lawyer [14:37] Josh1 Sands: Obviously my name is Josh1 Sands and I am from Colorado and am a retired Semantics and Writing teacher [14:37] Niobe Moomintoog: I'm an art historian at a private college in Massachusetts. [14:37] Zosia Bade: VP for Educational Technology at a community college [14:37] Brenda Yalin: Instructional Design in HOuston [14:37] Topher Zwiers is Directory Training & Emerging Technology for a community college... [14:37] You: I am also the project admin for this island and the one to the south, a brand new one we just added [14:37] Sheryl Saunders: I am director of online learning for an alternative certification program in Texas [14:37] Metaphor Voom: Metaphor Voom, associate prof art education and visual culture Texas A&M University [14:37] Kavon Zenovka: Kae from Front Range Community College not a lawyer but doing Student Services online [14:37] Peri Afarensis: I am a gallerist from Chicago [14:37] KitchenDonkey Ganesvoort: I am an assistant professor of Art (studio) in boston [14:37] Lark Jonson: Electronic Engineering and Photonics at Aston University, Birmingham in the UK - newish to SL [14:38] Miranda Llewellyn: Lecturer in Human Resource Management Glasgow Caledonian university Scotland [14:38] DocL Brandenburg: Instructional Design and Technology department [14:38] Hannah Leominster: I'm clearly out of my league, teach only IN SL, at TUi. but interested in the ramifications of the legal system as they may effect my classes [14:38] Mansfield Luftig: I'm a law lecturer in the UK and have held a couple of classes in SL. I also devised a LLM module on Cyber Piracy and Virtual Property. [14:38] Rew Weatherwax: not a lawyer .pt teacher in rl and sl at the recreational level [14:38] Maggie Haas: I teach Ballet in New York [14:38] Kamsin Kazan: if only ice breakers were this easy in RL [14:38] You: sorry eveyone [14:38] Liz Darkstone: I am a Law Lecturer in London England [14:38] You: needed to reset the hairs charirs ok - give me one moment, there seems to be a problem [14:39] ScubaChris Wollongong: It reset my hair Leominster (6m) [14:39] You: ok - lets get started [14:39] Kamsin Kazan: while we're waiting folks ok if I take a snapshot - trying to convince administrators re: utility sl [14:39] You: did we miss anyone [14:39] MLani Montgomery poses for the picture [14:40] You: how did you hear about today's meeting - if a group, which group - is a list, which list, if events, please also say so [14:40] MLani Montgomery: I got it in two group announcements. [14:40] Mansfield Luftig: events. [14:40] Zotarah Shepherd: I am a MA in Education (technology and psychology) student at Sonoma State University in northern California working an a curriculum thesis project: Teaching and Learning Life-Skills in Second Life. You can see one of my immersive eduicational builds at Koru based on Multiple Intelligences. [14:40] Hannah Leominster: search: events, education [14:40] Rew Weatherwax: By searching sl events [14:40] Kavon Zenovka: sled [14:40] Sheryl Saunders: SLED list [14:40] Niobe Moomintoog: Real Life Education in Second Life Group [14:40] Liz Darkstone: SL events [14:40] Hyro Hax is Online [14:40] You: anyone else? [14:40] Bisbee Writer: SLEDevents [14:40] Peri Afarensis: SLed List [14:41] Zotarah Shepherd: Bridging meeting from you AJ [14:41] Kamsin Kazan: SLED [14:41] Metaphor Voom: real life education in SL [14:41] Lark Jonson: SLED Events [14:41] You: wonderful thanks everyone, and welcome – again so - today we are talking about legal issues this seems to have come at a good time, as many of you on the SLED list know [14:41] Hyro Hax: Musical chairs? [14:41] You: the reason this meeting idea came up was to talk abotu FERPA) but there are clearly other issues also, like age verification and what RL lawas apply in SL [14:42] Topher Zwiers: copyright, IPR [14:42] Rew Weatherwax: FERPA? [14:42] You: so - to start off - if you are a lawyer, or involved in law - please say HERE [14:42] Julynn Lilliehook: HERE [14:42] Mansfield Luftig: HERE [14:42] Hyro Hax: HERE [14:42] Julynn Lilliehook: Now if I can keep from crashing... [14:43] Liz Darkstone: HERE [14:43] You: lol we do have a lot of folks here - if you ahve bling on, if you can take it off - that would help - also, AOs off might help too so - straw poll [14:43] Shot of Jack Daniel's whispers: Cheers! [14:43] You: by saying YES or NO _ do you think (operative word, thin) RL laws apply in SL? [14:44] Movies1963 Beck: yes [14:44] Bisbee Writer: yes [14:44] Kavon Zenovka: yes [14:44] MLani Montgomery: yes [14:44] Peri Afarensis: yes [14:44] Sheryl Saunders: Yes [14:44] Liz Darkstone: yes [14:44] Mansfield Luftig: yes [14:44] Topher Zwiers: yes [14:44] Josh1 Sands: sometimes [14:44] Julynn Lilliehook: Maybe [14:44] Hyro Hax: Of course [14:44] Rew Weatherwax: sometimes also [14:44] Brenda Yalin: yes [14:44] Niobe Moomintoog: some? [14:44] Zotarah Shepherd: yes, but... [14:44] You: 10 -0 - 3 [14:44] Kamsin Kazan: yes - depends of course [14:44] Sucha Jewell: julyinn... phew great to see you [14:44] Storm Parx: oop [14:44] You: 11 - 0- 6 ok a good start [14:44] Niobe Moomintoog: Some? [14:45] Julynn Lilliehook feels her blood pressure rising [14:45] You: hmm - i think the table and chairs are freaking out why don't we head into the amphitheater i'm going to derez the table and chairs now [14:45] Josh1 Sands: educators and lawyers we can be patient [14:45] Hyro Hax: OK [14:46] You: come on over folks but stay toward the front if you can [14:46] Sucha Jewell: stampede [14:46] Julynn Lilliehook: dang it [14:46] You: well - this is a good sign this is the frist time we've not been able to sit at the table [14:46] Julynn Lilliehook: edge iof sim? [14:46] You: yes the amphithteaer is on two sims allows more seating capacity [14:47] Bisbee Writer: interesting [14:47] Julynn Lilliehook: Lag slide crash! [14:47] You: so - rl laws apply in SL of course they do [14:47] Zotarah Shepherd: These pillows don't work AJ [14:47] You: but when, and to what extent is teh question most of the amphitheter doesnt' have pillos rez a box if you need [14:48] Zotarah Shepherd: If we are too spread out we will not be able to hear each other [14:48] You: i'm going to have to make a better table - this is too much like talking to a class [14:48] You: :-) yes - please try to stay within 20m so we can all heare each other [14:48] Storm Parx: and we know teachers are the WORST students :) [14:48] You: this is our largest group yet and so please excuse the organizational issues [14:49] Josh1 Sands: no worries AJ [14:49] You: perhaps next meeting we might be at a new location on our new island :-) so [14:49] Zotarah Shepherd: Everyong get close in the middle so we can all hear each other. [14:49] You: someone asked about FERPA it is Fedearl protection lawys anyone want to give it a readers digest consenced version [14:49] Julynn Lilliehook: Never heard of it [14:50] Josh1 Sands: runit by us [14:50] Bisbee Writer: I know it has to do with privacy of student records, right? [14:50] Rew Weatherwax: federal meanig the united statesof course right [14:50] You: yes and it has to do with protection of student privacy [14:50] Julynn Lilliehook: gotcha [14:50] Brenda Yalin: so basically no grades in public chat? [14:50] Kavon Zenovka: google ferpa in another screen [14:51] Niobe Moomintoog: You can't discuss a student with anyone unless the student's given express permission, right? [14:51] Julynn Lilliehook: oh brother! [14:51] You: not only no grades in public chat, but you can't give them out using a vhecile where you can't identify the identify of the student [14:51] Storm Parx: right [14:51] Kavon Zenovka: it is non disclosure of student educational records [14:51] MLani Montgomery: Family Education Rights and Privacy Act [14:51] Storm Parx: even their parents are out of loop [14:51] Maggie Haas: using voice? [14:51] You: yup [14:51] Julynn Lilliehook: dumb [14:51] You: well - maybe not so dumb [14:52] Rew Weatherwax: I need a basic question answered. Are we talking about a law that just applies in the States? Because i can't imagine it applies to me as a canadian? [14:52] Julynn Lilliehook: what is the big deal...everything so private... [14:52] MLani Montgomery: There are student and child privacy laws in every country. [14:52] Kavon Zenovka: it dpes protect student privacy, parents do call the school and ask [14:52] Kamsin Kazan: there is legislation in Canada re: student privacy [14:52] Kavon Zenovka: FERPA is U.S> [14:52] You: well - that is ANOTHER good question - do the laws of California or Texas (where the servers are) dictate how 'bout one of our lawyers here does FERPA apply to anyone teaching in SL? [14:53] Julynn Lilliehook: The current state of whether which jurisdiction applies in virtual worlds is unaswered [14:53] You: what if a Canadian is teaching a class and there is an american student in the class [14:53] Rew Weatherwax: Yes of course different countries have different laws :) i just want to know how it applies to people from other countries withing the boundaries of SL [14:53] Julynn Lilliehook: No one knows whether RL law applies in SL and if it does, which RL law applies [14:53] You: Rew - its a great question - gets to the heart of the matter well - we know some laws apply [14:54] Topher Zwiers: I'm not an attorney.. but, locale wouldn't seem to matter as long as we're talking about a US institution - it's a federal law... the institution is bound by the laws, not the service provider. [14:54] You: copyright, for instance [14:54] Kamsin Kazan: any sense of where the courts might come down on something like this? [14:54] Julynn Lilliehook: Read BEn Duranske's new book Virtual Law Courts do not make law [14:54] Kamsin Kazan: thanks Julynn just interpret it [14:54] Rew Weatherwax makes a note of the book [14:54] You: ok so [14:54] Kavon Zenovka: sorry not a lawyer, just someone who gets to deal with it everyday - it applies to educational records of a U.S> school that is receiving funds under U.S. federal programs [14:55] MLani Montgomery: But Linden Labs have responded to court proceedings instigated in European countries against activities in SL, so it may be that SL will be a testing ground for laws of multiple countries. [14:55] You: good - great [14:55] Julynn Lilliehook: The law will becided over time through cases, unless the legislature enacts something, however, since SL is international, I doubt US law would apply [14:55] Topher Zwiers: TinyURL for Duranske's book: http://tinyurl.com/3szach [14:55] You: but doesnt' LL have to go by US law? [14:55] Rew Weatherwax: ty Topher..saves me googling it :) [14:55] Josh1 Sands: AJ would the example of what happened to gambling in SL apply to the discussion? [14:55] Julynn Lilliehook: US LAw as to what? [14:55] You: so if something is illegal in US but not in another country, bam - its outta here? [14:55] Storm Parx: somoene's mic is open [14:56] Julynn Lilliehook: No [14:56] Josh1 Sands: I would hope not [14:56] Rew Weatherwax: LL would have to abide by us law maybe but not we inhabitants since we are citizens of other countries..i think? [14:56] You: well - gambling and banking seem to be more about finance than law [14:56] Maggie Haas: also the issues of income and tax [14:56] Josh1 Sands: k [14:56] Maggie Haas: in sl [14:56] Julynn Lilliehook: LL has complete control of SL which means if they want something gone, it's gone and the residents have no recourse [14:56] You: but you really dn't live in your own country - you live on a server in texas or California you = avatar, of course [14:57] MLani Montgomery: But if you are stealing intellectual property, who is going to go after you? [14:57] Rew Weatherwax: I live in another country when it comes to applicatin of law. [14:57] Julynn Lilliehook: Not LL [14:57] MLani Montgomery: What if a US citizen is stealing the intellectual property of a German. Which country's laws apply? [14:57] Josh1 Sands: great question [14:57] Rew Weatherwax: agrees [14:57] Kavon Zenovka: WebCt I beleive had servers in Canada for U.S. based online learning I don't think FERPA was any less effective? [14:57] MLani Montgomery: (Not that any of us would do that.) [14:57] You: Rew - I underrstand what you are saying, but "you" your avatar, does not live in canadar - you the account owner does so does the law even apply to your avatar its a can or worms [14:57] Julynn Lilliehook: If the GErman can bring suit and have the US citizen served ...perhaps German There is no law in SL [14:58] Storm Parx: thank god [14:58] You: but there is law where the servers preseide [14:58] MLani Montgomery: SO if a German is suing an American, doesn't the question of "where" the incident took place have an impact? We say it took place in cyber space. Then what? [14:58] Rew Weatherwax: However my avatar cannot beheld accountable, only I can. [14:58] Brenda Yalin: the avatar is a can of works but you are(the real you) are responsible for its actions. [14:58] You: so that begs the bigger questions [14:58] Josh1 Sands: but the servers just happen to be there [14:58] Kamsin Kazan: other than moral force do the SL standards carry no force? [14:58] Kavon Zenovka: Or does what a student does in SL become part of their educational record and doesn' t the reocrd have to be protected and kept by the school. [14:58] Rew Weatherwax imagines trying to sue an avatar :) [14:58] Topher Zwiers: Seems like the precedent would be the location of the servers. [14:59] MLani Montgomery: We don't know where the servers are. They aren't all in the US> [14:59] Maggie Haas: its subject to the laws governing cyberspace [14:59] Topher Zwiers: to dictate jurisdiction. [14:59] Brenda Yalin: still can trace an avatar to the real person [14:59] Julynn Lilliehook: Any student participating in SL may in fact be waiving a claim under that law you mentioned abocve. [14:59] Josh1 Sands: hey we do not know who eachother really might be anyway [14:59] You: great input everyone - I"m hoing Hyro is back for good now [14:59] Brenda Yalin: they use email against people [14:59] You: he teaches Cyberlaw for us at MSU [14:59] Julynn Lilliehook: Cyberlaw....hehehehe [14:59] Maggie Haas: the avatar is a 3d representation of its owner [15:00] Josh1 Sands: there is actually Cyberlaw? [15:00] Hyro Hax: Crash and burn [15:00] Storm Parx: cyberlaw...wow... [15:00] Julynn Lilliehook: not that I know of [15:00] You: well - he teachs law, cyberlaw is one of his classes [15:00] Julynn Lilliehook: it may be an emerging area of law [15:00] You: he's been invovled in virtual worlds since the late 1990s [15:00] Julynn Lilliehook: so what! [15:00] Kamsin Kazan: exactly [15:00] Mansfield Luftig: is the owner the avatar? surely SL raises the prospect of being something different to your RL embodiment? [15:00] Julynn Lilliehook: If I teach a class on plumbing law...does that mean there is such a field? [15:00] You: forgetting that someone can be a non-human [15:01] Julynn Lilliehook: You do not own your avatar [15:01] Mansfield Luftig: with different characteristics, behaviour, etc. [15:01] Kamsin Kazan: there is for plumbers :-) [15:01] Kavon Zenovka: Actually FERPA requires that student specifically waive access to their records in writing and that that written record be kept in the whatever you call it at your school - records, registrar, etc. [15:01] Julynn Lilliehook: LL can take it from you in an a=instant [15:01] Josh1 Sands: this is a game? [15:01] You: well - I'll let Hyro defend Cyberlaw [15:01] Julynn Lilliehook: Ok..let me explain something [15:01] Hyro Hax: Cyberlaw is the study of legal areas that have an impact on cyberspace [15:02] Julynn Lilliehook: about privacy laws they are created to give ppl a way to sue for disclosure of private info without consent [15:02] Hyro Hax: There is no legislated jurisdiction iknown as cyberspace and hence technically no cyberlaw [15:02] Julynn Lilliehook: but that doesn;t mean that if info gets out that a law suit is imminent or even worth the effort [15:02] Hyro Hax: However, it is a rich area for study since so much discourse, commerce, and communication occurs online. [15:03] Julynn Lilliehook: in every law suit...you must define damages [15:03] You: ok - so, if I steal someones sex bed design (which has happened), where is the case tried? [15:03] WYNN Criss: If the student discloses his own information in a course in SL- the college should not be responsible for the rlease of that information. [15:03] Julynn Lilliehook: so you need to show how you were damaged by the unauthorized disclosure [15:03] You: lets say the inventor is in Brazil and I am in Germany [15:03] Julynn Lilliehook: no one is going to jail [15:03] Rew Weatherwax agrees with Wynn [15:03] Hyro Hax: That would be a choice of venue issue. Assuming that you could tie the issue to federal or state coursts [15:04] Sucha Jewell: Julynn my hero!! [15:04] You: does the location of the SL servers have ANYTHIGN to do with it? [15:04] Julynn Lilliehook: aw shucks [15:04] Sucha Jewell: lol [15:04] Julynn Lilliehook: Forget about the servers! [15:04] You: hey - I'm allowed to ask questions [15:04] Zotarah Shepherd: If there is virtual space then there should be virtual law and here that should be the TOS. Right? [15:04] You: :-) [15:04] Kavon Zenovka: If a student discloses their own information, then the college is not responsible. [15:04] Julynn Lilliehook: are we talking about the school sstuff or German inventor stuff [15:04] Hyro Hax: It might. However, the location of the individuals, corporations, and agreements with choice of law clauses might be determining [15:05] You: ok - thanks [15:05] Julynn Lilliehook agrres with Hyro [15:05] You: Straw Poll [15:05] Julynn Lilliehook: Oy vey another straw poll [15:05] You: by saying YES - how many peopel here are NOT in the Unitede States? [15:05] Julynn Lilliehook: WAIT [15:05] Rew Weatherwax: If a studend enrolls in a college that is involved in SL, and that college has private records, and they get disclosed by the college, the student would sue the college not SL. Right? Why would they sue SL? [15:05] Julynn Lilliehook: That's private! [15:05] WYNN Criss: The college is not respobsible for what is disclosed on facebook-how does Sl differ? [15:05] Rew Weatherwax: yes [15:05] Lark Jonson: YES [15:06] Kamsin Kazan: YES [15:06] You: its only private if peopel choose not to answer - they are not obligated to do so, [15:06] Julynn Lilliehook: Why ask? [15:07] You: ok - so we can move foward thinking that US law applies to most peopel here at this meeting [15:07] Josh1 Sands: hey even google stuck to the US Fed Gov't on the issue of privacy [15:07] Kavon Zenovka: Rew- I agree. Wynn - I agree. Although some schools are taking a 2nd look at promoting social networking sites just from PR standpoint. [15:07] WYNN Criss: Yes for me. [15:07] Julynn Lilliehook: That is the beauty of SL...anonymity [15:07] Josh1 Sands: exactly [15:07] Storm Parx: beauty for everything except education [15:07] You: then you don't have to answer - its as private as saying who you are, where you workm, and what you do - its an option to answer, not required [15:07] Storm Parx: they won't be anonymous any more [15:07] You: I see a lot of hands gong, I'll give everyoen a second to catch up [15:08] Hyro Hax: I would have to look at the statute but I think that the school is restrained. So if the school falls under the act then the law applies wherever the school disseminates info. [15:08] Rew Weatherwax: If this is a discussion about whether american law applies to americans...well thats obvious :) But how to apply american law to other people? Not sure its possible. [15:09] Kamsin Kazan: think of it in terms of precedent [15:09] Julynn Lilliehook sees a cop and shifts in her seat nervously. [15:09] You: Rew - exactly - but we are now in a global community [15:09] WYNN Criss: But if the student discloses information how do we know if they are actually disclosing it or if another student is disclosing it as an avatar? [15:09] Filthy Fluno is Offline [15:09] You: not knowing if a student is a student is what makes discclosing personal info in SL a violation of FERP{A [15:09] Case Wrangler whispers - Don't worry.. I'm a good cop. [15:09] You: i believe [15:10] Mansfield Luftig: There is a similar law (to FERPA) protecting the confidentiality of data in the UK. In fact, most jurisdictions have similar legislation, so many of the views set down here are valid extra-territorially. [15:10] You: (i'll vouch for him, he IS a good cop) [15:10] Hyro Hax: Good point AJ [15:10] Rew Weatherwax: Yes AJ..but the global community is not governed by the US. :) [15:10] Case Wrangler: (ty AJ!) :) [15:10] You: REW - very true - but the company on whose servers we are operting IS and that is my question we don't have to worry abotu murder here in SL (or do we) but what about theft [15:11] Julynn Lilliehook: IMHO...if you want to operate a school here and give credit, you must have that student give their RL info, and also have them sign some sort of waiver for disclosures in SL. [15:11] You: intellectual or otherwise [15:11] Kavon Zenovka: WYNN - I think you have use what you are currently using in the online classes like BB. If it is from the student's account where a used id and password is required, then it is assumed to belong to that student. [15:11] You: you are coroect Kavon [15:12] Mercury Barnes: SL needs courts, and a judicial system -- the content thefts will force something to be done, fairness will argue for a "reasoned presentation, discussion, and decision" based on the facts by a fair and impartial system. [15:12] You: I'd like to shift gears quickly [15:12] Julynn Lilliehook: Schools need to consult an attorney that practices federal law and have them create the rule which will keep the scholl from getting sued. [15:12] WYNN Criss: Copyright issues definitely need to be addressed- how to we go about "controlling" that issue? [15:12] Julynn Lilliehook: NO COURTS IN SL! They are bad enough in RL! [15:12] You: lol ok - rl scenario straw poll just kidding lol :-) [15:12] Julynn Lilliehook slaps her hand to her forhead! [15:12] Rew Weatherwax: :) [15:12] You: if you know someone is underage in SL, what do you do? [15:13] Mercury Barnes: Yes, that's what one content creator said, then insisted the Lindens should ban and hound the recalcitrant "by all means possible." [15:13] Julynn Lilliehook: LEt's not go there...okay? I think we have hashed that out enough iopn the you-know-what [15:13] You: but not everyoen here is on the u know what another one of the beauties of SL [15:13] Julynn Lilliehook: hahaha [15:13] You: my point of that is, are the ToS the Law in Sl? [15:14] Case Wrangler: In SL, LL wants people to abuse report underage people. [15:14] Mercury Barnes: Could be a citizen elected body -- nothing says we have to have the weight of the existing legal systems. I dislike abuse reports. [15:14] Hyro Hax: Off to teach my course ironically called: The Rise of the Machine Culture and the Decline of Humnity: Legal Perspectives. Thanks [15:14] You: lol - thanks Hyro [15:14] Mercury Barnes: Far too many are unfounded, wrong, etc.. [15:14] You: Dickson is WAY too hot for classes [15:14] WYNN Criss: OK so the colleges need to come up with their own guidelines on copyright infringement- they can not really get the FCC involved or any of the other regulatory agencies. [15:14] Kamsin Kazan: ttx Hyro [15:14] Rew Weatherwax wonders if anyone has read Heinleins Moon is a Harsh MIstress [15:14] Mansfield Luftig: The TOS of SL govern external relations. In fact, I think a court is nominated for the commencement of actions. [15:15] You: Rew - I have read everythign he wrote so - back to my question if you are 100% sure someone is under 18, do you report them? [15:15] Mercury Barnes: A well-run court, with decent decisions, could play well in a real court of law... [15:15] Julynn Lilliehook: What? No straw poll? [15:15] You: lol just for you no straw poll [15:15] affrontimariana Arado: yes [15:15] Kamsin Kazan: maybe hay [15:15] Julynn Lilliehook: There is NO SUCH THING as a well run well reasoned court [15:15] Zotarah Shepherd: YES and I have [15:16] Julynn Lilliehook: trust me on this [15:16] Rew Weatherwax: Me too..and from his ideas..self goverment here is what would work right? Because trying to enforce 'laws from earth' in a non earth setting ...it isnt going to work the culture is different [15:16] Mercury Barnes: I don't Julynn, sorry. [15:16] Case Wrangler: Ok, SL is subject to RL laws, but then those are further limited by the contract LL has with its members. If there is no contractual elimination of corporations in SL, could a corporation be created *within* SL, that would then have the status of being a 'person'? (What age would that new 'person' be, then? I suppose the person would have to be created in RL. first). Sorry, this is just an aside. [15:16] Julynn Lilliehook: Judges hcan hardly understand caller ID let alone virtual worlds [15:16] You: ROFL [15:16] Storm Parx: lol [15:16] Mercury Barnes: That's why we need our own court system -- to educate them. [15:16] You: oooooo-ka [15:16] Sucha Jewell: LOILLLLLLL [15:16] Julynn Lilliehook: Ach [15:17] WYNN Criss: As an educator and a parent I think that would be the responsible thing to do. SL has teen locales-mature should be restricted. [15:17] Julynn Lilliehook: Ok...you wanna be judge? [15:17] Case Wrangler: Oh. heh.. I'm glad that got a few laughs. [15:17] Mercury Barnes: If elected by my peers? yes. [15:17] Hannah Leominster: i'm waiting for someone from Disneyland to come online and see all the Disney characters... THEN we'll find out how RL law effects SL. [15:17] You: if nominated I will not run and if elected I will not serv e [15:17] Storm Parx: or mavel [15:17] Zotarah Shepherd: No matter what country we live in we agreed to the TOS and ethically for the protection of the child we must report them if they are here under age 18. [15:17] Storm Parx: marvel [15:17] You: OK wait Z hit it on the head hang on everyone [15:18] affrontimariana Arado: somebody speak spanish here? [15:18] Sucha Jewell: can someone explain to me the diference between this discussion and the discussion of having teens or under age kids on the web/internet when it first came out? [15:18] Julynn Lilliehook: And how would a judge determine a case? Where would that judge look? [15:18] Case Wrangler: The judge would look at me. [15:18] Sucha Jewell: especially in schools [15:18] Hannah Leominster: s/he would look at the TOS [15:18] Mercury Barnes: The teen discussion is easier -- very cut and dried -- they're out. [15:18] You: ok - lets try to focus so we can beging to wrap up [15:18] Julynn Lilliehook: Yes..look to the lying cops and agree the guy sitting next to me is guilty Oh..sorry, that's RL [15:19] You: there is a Terms of Service - is THAT the law of the land? [15:19] Josh1 Sands: lol [15:19] Case Wrangler: lol [15:19] Julynn Lilliehook: TOS is not law [15:19] Case Wrangler: Hmmm.. [15:19] You: "law" [15:19] Hannah Leominster: but we agree to abide by them when we sign in. [15:19] Julynn Lilliehook: TOS is a contract of adhesion [15:19] You: i was being figurative [15:19] Mercury Barnes: Policy can carry the weight of law (just ask a Librarian). [15:19] Case Wrangler: The TOS is subordinate to RL law. [15:19] You: but it is a contarct we all agree to, no? [15:19] Julynn Lilliehook: You wanna be in SL...here's what we say are the rules. Agree or don;t play [15:19] Case Wrangler: Any contract can be deemed invalid if it violates law. [15:19] You: ok - so doesnt' that ,by default, make it the :"law" of our land? [15:20] Zotarah Shepherd: Not just for any danger they might experience here but because they must be responsible and if we allow children to get away with unlawfullness it teaches them the wrong lesson. [15:20] You: law - loosly defined [15:20] Julynn Lilliehook: Ok... tell me, what law does the TOS violate? [15:20] Rew Weatherwax: The SL platform is not a democracy.. [15:20] Julynn Lilliehook: And is it criminal or civil law which is violated? [15:20] You: laws are not restricted to democracies who was that for, Jul? [15:20] Julynn Lilliehook: The copper [15:21] You: lol - Case? [15:21] Sucha Jewell: we are not 'allowing children' anything. Children are on the web all the time and encounter porn sites all the time. If you prevent it at home they will find it elsewhere [15:21] Julynn Lilliehook: Case Wrangler: Any contract can be deemed invalid if it violates law. [15:21] Zotarah Shepherd: We would be codependents to their weakness rather than empowering them to be honest and responsible. [15:21] Sucha Jewell: you can coach them into honesty [15:21] Case Wrangler: It depends on the jurisdiction. I will see if I can find a case I read about in which a U.S. judge made a decision or statement about SL TOS. [15:21] You: Sucha - that doesn't make it right [15:21] Julynn Lilliehook: That is a moral and ethical issue ZS, not a legal issue [15:21] Topher Zwiers: enjoyed it all.. thanks! [15:21] Sucha Jewell: but if you ban them that puts them in further danger because they will still do it but hide it [15:21] Zotarah Shepherd: True [15:21] You: bye chris [15:21] affrontimariana Arado: bye all [15:22] You: allowing it send the wrong message – entirely OK beore everyone heads out wiat one second'housekeeping issues I may need to move the time of the meeting would 3:30 start be really bad for anyone here? instead of 2:30 start? [15:22] Julynn Lilliehook: Am I guilty of child abuse if I see a parent hit a child and do not intervene? [15:22] Mercury Barnes: Even better -- means I can get home, settled, before logging on. [15:22] Mansfield Luftig: yeah, it would be 11:30pm in the UK! [15:22] Storm Parx: good for me [15:22] Zotarah Shepherd: Morality and responsibility (justice) underlie the laws we created. [15:22] Niobe Moomintoog: Better for me. [15:23] You: ok - if you ahve room, please join the group - or ask me for an invite i'll pose the questin there as well [15:23] Julynn Lilliehook: sorry [15:23] Rew Weatherwax: Wish i could belive that Zo [15:23] You: well - they are SUPPOSED to underlie it all [15:24] Storm Parx: what's the topic for next week? [15:24] Julynn Lilliehook: some laws are created b/c that's what legislators get paid to do and so they must look busy [15:24] Sucha Jewell: lolllllll [15:24] You: lol [15:24] Julynn Lilliehook: In NYC you can get a ticket for not recycling [15:24] You: well - there IS a moral imperative there of sorts [15:25] Zotarah Shepherd: The spirit of the law is a consideration in most cases not just the letter of the law. Right? [15:25] Julynn Lilliehook: Oh...so recycling is a moral duty? [15:25] You: well - if you see it as out way of contributing to the ongoing existance of mankind [15:25] David Shea: I believe that recycling is taken a lot more serioius at places outside the US [15:25] You: or humankind so as to not be considered sexist [15:25] Julynn Lilliehook: How about not having kids you cannot afford to raise without the taxpayers' help? [15:26] Kavon Zenovka: FERPA isn't what's bothering me with SL, we've dealt with FERPA, it's the additioanl caveats colleges are getting when it comes to implementing SL in the classroom. [15:26] You: lol - ok-= you didn't just go there [15:26] Sucha Jewell: LOLLLLLL [15:26] Julynn Lilliehook: Oh yes I did [15:26] You: thats is also a moral issue [15:26] Zotarah Shepherd: If we do not recycle it will become critical and even life threatening. [15:26] Julynn Lilliehook: Just another form of littering [15:26] You: some may see it taht way the system is set up badly to encourage that behavior Recycling uses up more resources and causes more air pollution than putting the stuff in a landfill [15:27] Storm Parx: Topic for next week? [15:27] You: not if done properly, and lets talk in 50 years Next week - I blieve is Bridging issues [15:27] Sucha Jewell: sorry AJ I won't be around [15:27] Julynn Lilliehook: I hate it...I have to wash teh stuff out, take off the lables, sort, it is time consuming and a waste of water [15:27] You: how to deal with those coming over from the Teen Grid [15:27] Case Wrangler: Sorry for the delay. I don't know if someone already mentioned it, but I believe I was thinking of the Bragg case. [15:28] Kavon Zenovka: Bragg case? [15:28] Bisbee Writer: Kavon, I agree with you...extra restrictions on SL are one more barrier to using it with students [15:28] Zotarah Shepherd: China did something about overpopulation and it has not worked very well. Educate women instead. [15:28] Case Wrangler: Yes, I will provide reference [15:28] Julynn Lilliehook: LL will have to enforce age verification to prevent that sort of thing [15:28] Case Wrangler: It's a couple of links, so I will pass it out in a notecard.. Bragg v. Linden Research, Inc., No. 06-4925 (E.D. Pa. May 30, 2007) [15:28] Julynn Lilliehook: Now here in the US it is illegal to sell cigarettes to a person under 18 [15:28] You: For those who need to leave, our tie is about up. We meet each week here - time to be announce next week - but it will be either 2:30pm or 3:30pm SLT here on the CHSS Island [15:29] Kavon Zenovka: Was it TOS or was he suing for his inventory? [15:29] You: JON OUR GROUP!!!! SL EDUCATION ROUNDTABLE, let me know if you need an invite [15:29] Julynn Lilliehook: That case is not law.... [15:29] You: the case was never tried [15:29] Kavon Zenovka: okay [15:29] You: it was settlede out of court, right? [15:29] Mansfield Luftig: LL settled. [15:29] Josh1 Sands: thx AJ for everything in the organization and meeting:) [15:29] You: YW - thanks for coming [15:29] Storm Parx: Is LL on the stock exchange? [15:29] Case Wrangler: Ahh.. I never thought of settling as a means to prevent case law. [15:29] You: i'm not leaving yet - so if you want to stay, please do [15:29] Storm Parx: I mean....are they making big bucks? [15:30] Julynn Lilliehook: yes...but the opinion does reveal how the LL TOS is "unfair" [15:30] Kavon Zenovka: Thank you AJ! [15:30] Mercury Barnes: A workable "enforced" age verification will solve many issues within SL, with some unknown effect on what this place is. [15:30] Julynn Lilliehook: PPL setlle to save money...not to prevent case law [15:31] Case Wrangler: So can a decision in a settled case still become case law? [15:31] ScubaChris Wollongong: Bye AJ thanks [15:31] Case Wrangler: & a precident? [15:31] You: bye chris [15:31] Julynn Lilliehook: Decisions may or may not affect future cases...it depends [15:31] Mercury Barnes: Thanks Aj...:) [15:31] Case Wrangler gave you Bragg case - Bragg v. Linden Research, Inc., No. 06-4925. [15:31] You: yw Mercury [15:31] Storm Parx: are any of us currently using Sl for a course? [15:31] Zotarah Shepherd: Thanks Case [15:31] You: i did last semester hybrid class 1/2 in SL and 1/2 on campus [15:32] Storm Parx: Is there some place we can go to get your take on using it? [15:32] Mansfield Luftig: Yes, Storm. LLM module. [15:32] DocL Brandenburg: yes [15:32] Case Wrangler: Welcome [15:32] Mercury Barnes: thnx on Bragg... [15:32] Storm Parx: How you managed class, etc [15:32] Zotarah Shepherd: Only as a student project [15:32] Rew Weatherwax: ty Case :)_ [15:32] Bisbee Writer: bye and thanks! [15:32] You: bye bisbee - hope to see you again [15:33] Julynn Lilliehook: What we need to do here, before handing out case law, is to have an undestanding of civil procedure and jurisdiction You cannot read caselaw without understanding how they fit into the scheme of things [15:33] Zotarah Shepherd: Do come and see my educational build please. I will be graded on it soon. [15:33] Storm Parx: I'd love to. Where is it located? [15:33] Rew Weatherwax: But if the discussion relates only to americans.. [15:33] Case Wrangler: Well, I don't know if it's case law and don't claim it to be. I just recalled an article discussing it. Of course, I agree that we should understand it. [15:33] You: oh - I was there - its grand - nice work [15:34] Zotarah Shepherd: Koru northeast corner [15:34] Rew Weatherwax: i would like the lm also Zotarah [15:34] Julynn Lilliehook: You have to have a foundation in legal analysis before you read cases. [15:34] Zotarah Shepherd: Thank you AJ ok I have the LM [15:35] Storm Parx: I just wonder is this is a "wave " of teh future for online courses or a gimmmickThank you Zot [15:35] You: Virtual worlds are not a gimmick or a fad [15:35] Rew Weatherwax: ty Zotarah [15:35] You: SL may not be the big dog someday, but VWs are here to stay [15:35] Rew Weatherwax: nodding [15:35] You: lol - may now, will not [15:35] Zotarah Shepherd: yw Rew [15:35] Case Wrangler: That even rhymes. :) [15:35] Mansfield Luftig: All my students have stated, categorically, that SL should in no way replace face-to-face sessions. [15:36] Case Wrangler: I agree [15:36] Storm Parx: we ust haven't quite figured out how to get colleges to see them as a viable alternative to the sterile online environment? [15:36] Zotarah Shepherd: You're welcomw Storm [15:36] You: we're not talking about face to face books didn't replace face to face teaching virtual worlds are a tool [15:36] Zotarah Shepherd: And so few teachers know how to use it effectively [15:36] Storm Parx: My students would wayy rather do this than a Blackboard only course [15:36] You: i taught hybrid, my students LOVED the SL portion, as much as teh F2F portion [15:36] Julynn Lilliehook: hmmmm...well interesting discussion [15:37] You: tahnks for coming Julynn [15:37] Storm Parx: AJ, do you have notes or a blog, or something we can look at? [15:37] Julynn Lilliehook: See you again soon! [15:37] Zotarah Shepherd: Thank you AJ very interesting [15:37] You: Yes - I'm a few weeks behind, but the transcript will be in the building to my right [15:37] Case Wrangler: Thanks for your criticisms, Julynn. (I don't mean that sarcastically.) [15:37] You: If you join the SL EDUCATION ROUNDTABLE group, I'll put a notice out - I"ll also notify SLED [15:37] Storm Parx: thank you [15:37] Julynn Lilliehook: Oh...well we all do better when challenged a bit. [15:37] Mansfield Luftig: Thanks, AJ. Interesting. Hope to attend further sessions. [15:38] Zotarah Shepherd: I will when I can get out of a group AJ [15:38] Storm Parx: can I get an invite? [15:38] You: ok - but you're in other gropus I'm in [15:38] Zotarah Shepherd: yes [15:38] Storm Parx: Thank you [15:38] You: yw [15:39] Zotarah Shepherd: Bye everyone [15:39] You: bye Z great to see you - as usual [15:39] Case Wrangler: bye Z [15:39] Zotarah Shepherd: Bye Case [15:39] Storm Parx: You know...the people who design VW for colleges are going to make bank [15:39] Zotarah Shepherd: Thanks AJ good to be here. [15:39] You: ? whats that storm>? [15:39] Zotarah Shepherd: I have to find Intellagirl [15:39] You: she's not on [15:40] Rew Weatherwax: If they figure out the legal issues in their countries [15:40] Storm Parx: Welll...the legal piece is always going to be an issue for schools [15:40] Zotarah Shepherd: I know. [15:40] Case Wrangler: I hope I didn't interrupt too much, AJ. [15:40] Storm Parx: so the best way to get around it [15:40] You: always great to have you here case [15:40] Storm Parx: will be to have their own VW like Sl from within teh college [15:40] You: MediaGrid or OpenSim [15:40] Case Wrangler: Thank you, AJ. I enjoyed it. :) [15:40] You: but that is a can ofow rms [15:40] Storm Parx: colleges are always going to want to CONTROL everything [15:40] Zotarah Shepherd waves bye to Movies [15:40] You: of worms [15:40] Zotarah Shepherd: hehe [15:40] Movies1963 Beck: bye bye Zo [15:40] You: not too many can bring LMS's in house [15:41] Storm Parx: not yet [15:41] You: this would be just the same [15:41] Storm Parx: but I think that's whre we're headed the days of strictly text based online courses are coming to an end [15:42] You: well - not so fast, that is what they said with the VCR, adn TV, and web conferencing [15:42] Storm Parx: And all of those have changed quite rapidly [15:42] You: yes they have but the interactivity of VWs is different this is TRULY engaging, where as VCR and web conference never really way as much [15:43] Rew Weatherwax: Excuse me, i must run. Great discussion..thank you AJ [15:43] You: Hey Movies [15:43] Storm Parx: Yes...this is more engaging than sterile online courses... [15:43] Movies1963 Beck: hi Al [15:43] You: TY for coming Rew - hope to see you again [15:43] Case Wrangler: Take care Rew. [15:43] You: Movies, did you see the articel in VWN today [15:43] Rew Weatherwax: thank you thank you :) [15:43] You: Google and world.com are in discussion [15:43] Movies1963 Beck: no I got it in my e-mail but didnt have time to read it yet [15:43] You: not 100% sure about what [15:43] Storm Parx: have you read about the virtual college in California? [15:44] Movies1963 Beck: what's it about? [15:44] Storm Parx: They have craeted an Arabic language Sim [15:44] You: cooperative efforst [15:44] Storm Parx: much like SL... [15:44] You: i think it smore organizational than that advertising, etc...but it could be a step in buying them outright pure speculation, but still... [15:45] Storm Parx: this was interesting....it's fun to have such open dialogue [15:45] You: I've never said you were wrong, movies, just that I want to see proof TY storm - its like this each week [15:45] Movies1963 Beck: I've spoken to the owner of World on the phone a few times, he's extreamly smart and a good guy to talk with [15:45] Storm Parx: Enjoy the rest of your evening! I have to get out of these stuffy teacher clothes! [15:45] Movies1963 Beck: I understand Al lol [15:45] Case Wrangler: Hehe [15:45] You: :-) [15:45] Case Wrangler: Bye Storm [15:45] You: in legal terms, the circumstantial evidence is mounting [15:46] Movies1963 Beck: and trust me if I didnt respect you or what your doing I wouldnt come [15:46] You: but still not enough to convince the judge, here wow - that was really nice of you to say - I'm really glad you do come I enjoy the exchange [15:46] Movies1963 Beck: your meetings are always great thats why I come [15:46] You: ty - oh were it to be my credit - the grou makes the m very interesting *group some really smart people come, I just corral them lol [15:47] Movies1963 Beck: lol but that's my point, you give us a forum [15:47] Case Wrangler: So I'm sheep, huh, AJ? [15:47] You: well - thanks [15:47] Case Wrangler: LOL [15:47] You: well - case, I did mean tot alk to you about that [15:47] Case Wrangler: Haha [15:47] You: I'll talk to Mysti next [15:47] Case Wrangler: I know.. I just couldn't resist that joke. [15:48] You: I"m all too sure there are picture of me being sheeped out there [15:48] Can't create object 'Sheep' because the parcel 'Montclair State Amphitheater' at Montclair State CHSS 235.95, 252.036 is full. Ha [15:49] You: there NOW - you are sheep [15:49] Case Wrangler: Heh Nice sheep... Heh [15:49] You: lol ok - I gtg back to work [15:50] Case Wrangler: Well, See you again. I must be off, too. [15:50] You: left eary because it was 89 degrees in my office [15:50] Case Wrangler: Nice discussion. [15:50] You: later case, later movies Tommy - you are standing in my amphtitheater [15:51] Case Wrangler: lol [15:51] You: wow so am I was is this happening [15:51] Case Wrangler: Hmmmmmmm phantom prim? [15:51] TommyJW Ninetails: does it look like I'm sunk? [15:52] You: not phantom I'l have to get Cooljoke to look into it lol [15:52] TommyJW Ninetails: I'm not stuck - I'm just doing something differnet [15:52] You: well - tommy - you were in up to your waist thanks for the cones, Case [15:52] TommyJW Ninetails: weeeee [15:52] Case Wrangler: Oh, sim border (brb) [15:53] You: no - the sim border is over behind us all the way over here [15:53] TommyJW Ninetails: maybe it's just me? [15:53] You: no - it happened to me too [15:53] Case Wrangler: Hmmmmmmm [15:54] TommyJW Ninetails: hidden trap! cool [15:54] You: lol [15:54] Case Wrangler: Is the prim phantom? [15:54] You: nope [15:54] Case Wrangler: I noticed a similar thing in one of the volunteer sims which is taken care of by Lindens [15:55] TommyJW Ninetails: it seems - once you get into it - it continues [15:55] Case Wrangler: Look underneath the ground slopes where you go lower you end up on the ground [15:56] You: ok - listen gusy - I've gtg - apparently the chat from today is gtoo big for a notecard, I 've got to go fix that [15:56] Case Wrangler: maybe removing and replacing this prim would help